🔒 Herman Mashaba: Come 2025 – we will remove the ANC

Entrepreneur and former Mayor of Johannesburg Herman Mashaba is an independent politician. After resigning from the Democratic Alliance and his mayoral position, Mashaba launched The People’s Dialogue in December with the objective to “engage” South Africans in a conversation about the future of our country. Mashaba has even gone as far as to assure the people of South Africa that come 2021 – he is going to intensify the dismantling of the patronage network, and come 2025 – ‘we will remove the ANC’. In this excerpt from Monday’s Rational Radio webinar with BizNews founder Alec Hogg, Mashaba confirms that The People’s Dialogue will officially be launching at the end of August. However, Mashaba admits that: ‘The day when we are going to remove the ANC, whoever is going to take over is going to take over a bankrupt country, a system that is really destroyed’. Thys du Toit, co-founder of Coronation, was also a guest at the webinar. In a heart-warming message to Mashaba, Du Toit thanks him for what he has done for this country and says that he has often apologised for white privilege in the past and that what happened was wrong. But he adds: ‘We are there. We would like to make a contribution. We would like to make South Africa a better place’. Mashaba’s unapologetic approach to ending corruption in our country is a source of great hope for South Africans and makes him a formidable opponent to the current political system. – Nadya Swart

We’re bringing Herman Mashaba in now. Herman has a wonderful pedigree as an entrepreneur. The People’s Dialogue – and we’ll talk about that in some detail now, Herman – really does have a corruption manifesto, almost. 
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If Mashaba were President of SA right now

This is the biggest thing that South Africans want to know about. Let’s just say that you win the election in 2024 and you become the President of South Africa and you can get in a time machine and go back to where we are right now. What would you do with the King of Lanzerac? 

Well, I think the first thing I would do – really, like I did when I took over the city of Johannesburg – is establish a team of top investigators, bring back the Scorpions. I can tell you the first three months of my administration, I’ll reestablish the Scorpions and really work with other agencies in the world to assist us with the capacitation. 

One thing that’s actually been quite good about South Africa is that we do have the expertise. We’ve got committed South Africans. Unfortunately, they’ve been sidelined by the ANC patronage network. If you look at our civil service – it’s dominated by the patronage network. And I think, for me, it goes even deeper where the ANC has penetrated even the private sector. 

If you look at why and how big business has been afraid of ANC for all these years, because of their use of COSATU threats, and really using state power to threaten big business, including actually using race, so that when you’re a white person – they raise the issue immediately to silence you. They attack you on the basis of race. 

So, I think we need to dismantle this patronage network. So, as I set up a unit to deal with this corruption immediately (and I also give this commitment to the people of South Africa) that within the first six months we need to get rid of the ANC patronage network within the entire machinery of the state. 

We put in professional public service people who are there not because of who they know, but because of what they know. And we do have committed South Africans. I was beginning to enjoy the success of our tough work. 900 arrests in the city of Johannesburg, 800 senior officials were fired. And I was obviously accused and it was actually very strange that even some people in the media were accusing me of ANC patronage. 

And I can assure the people of South Africa: come 2021 – I’m going to intensify the dismantling of the patronage network. Come 2025 – we will remove the ANC. We will even fast track that process. And I’m not going to compromise or apologise to anyone about such an approach.

Thys, before you go. Just perhaps – to pick up on what Herman said there about business in South Africa being scared of the ANC due to the strong-arming.

Herman, it’s nice hearing you and thank you for what you’re doing for South Africa. I agree. Unfortunately, when a middle aged white person like me becomes vocal, we’re quite easily being marginalised because we are white privilege. And yes, we were! And I’ve often apologised in the past, and I don’t want to take up time, but yes – what happened was wrong. But we are there. We would like to make a contribution. We would like to make South Africa a better place. That’s why, as you said a bit earlier, I don’t typically want to do this thing. But unless our voices are heard… There is a saying that if good people stay quiet – bad things happen. And I think that’s our responsibility. 

Thys du Toit, co-founder of Coronation. 

The People’s Dialogue

Herman, I guess that’s a wonderful way to pick up on The People’s Dialogue. What exactly is happening there? In your press statement you set out recently you’re gonna be officially launching at the end of August. You’re getting a thousand people a day signing up to help. It’s extraordinary.

Absolutely, I think it’s really quite pleasing, though, to really be honest with you – I’m really very nervous. The day when we are going to remove the ANC, whoever is going to take over is going to take over a bankrupt country, a system that is really destroyed. Look at the city of Joburg or Durban or Pretoria. 

So, the infrastructure backlog. So I was talking to them about them really as a method of urgency needing to start putting together teams that can really work on looking at the infrastructure backlog so that I can start sharing this with society in advance so that I can manage their expectations. Because you can imagine – if you remove ANC tomorrow with these high expectations, high unemployment in a country that is spending billions every day on servicing debt and so forth. 

So, I believe very strongly that I need to start putting all these measures in place so that people really understand that this project of unseating the ANC is the answer. But – we’ll be out of this trouble 15, 20 years down the line. I can tell you: no one will be able to solve the damage that the ANC has caused in 10 years – it’s humanly impossible. 

Because you’ll really have to cut down on the size of the state. We need less than 20 ministers immediately. And I was saying to them yesterday, do we need provinces? Just by doing away with provinces – you can probably save R20bn or so that you can push into municipalities, push into infrastructure. 

So, we need money to be able to do those things. We need to spend money on education: make sure that 15, 20, 25 years down the line – we have top scientists, credible accountants and so forth. You don’t produce accountants and engineers overnight, this process takes time and it requires money. 

How the world sees SA

How about getting the confidence of the international community? Because South Africa, honestly, I believe we are worse off than even during the apartheid days in terms of our credibility. South Africa was the scum of the world. Today, I think it’s even worse, because people don’t really trust us. They see a black person: they think you’re a rapist or an abuser of women and so forth. 

So, this is really what the world actually thinks about us. And, unfortunately, to some extent these are really issues that we have to demonstrate to the world that we are people of integrity. We are not rapists, we are not murderers and so forth. But, people are not going to believe us overnight. It’s going to take many years.

Herman, tonight we are expecting to get the announcement of the International Monetary Fund‘s R70bn that they’re going to give the country for Covid-19 relief – almost a dress rehearsal to what is likely to have to happen in the future, because this country will need to get money from somewhere. 

And as you said earlier, the reputation is such junk status that there aren’t going to be people queuing up to put money into South Africa. When you hear tonight what the government will react to the IMF, do you think this is the start of maybe a turnaround for the country? 

Absolutely. In fact, I’m concerned. I mean, if this ANC patronage and thieves can steal and deprive people of food parcels (and you can imagine to what level these people have gone) – that R70bn, I can tell you those hyenas are waiting for it. And they’re not going to hesitate because they know that there are no consequences. Our criminal justice system is totally captured with the exception of our judiciary. 

We have to fast track private prosecution

So, we have to find ways to fast track private prosecution, because I can tell you: the NPA, the Hawks – they’re not going to prosecute ANC people. We have to then really use the courts for private prosecution. So we need the resources. I’m putting measures in place. And unfortunately, at the moment, I’m still funding 95% of the work I’m doing from my family. 

That’s why I’m asking South Africans to please come to the party and be accountable before the ANC completely collapses this country like ZANU-PF did in Zimbabwe. We need to use our courts to take the ANC criminals who are in Cabinet, who are in Parliament. Let’s use the courts for private prosecution. 

That’s the only thing I can see that can save us, because they are not going to accept bringing elections forward – that you can forget. But they can’t stop us from taking them to court for private prosecution. But you need the resources.

The election next year, the municipal election, will you be ready to contest it? 

Absolutely, we will be ready – but I would not really be ready to contest all 278 municipalities. At the moment I’m targeting three. That is Johannesburg, Tshwane and Ekurhuleni. We might consider one or two others depending whether those municipalities are winnable. Also, if I can identify credible leadership, ethical leadership, because I would not want people who are going to embarrass us. 

And also, then I can have the resources to contest those municipalities. But for sure – with my family’s resources – we will put money towards contesting those three if the business community doesn’t want to come to the party. Fortunately, now ordinary South Africans are coming, giving us 500 there, 250 here – it helps. But I’m committed to ensuring that we can save this country. I don’t have anywhere else to go. 

And if I sit back and complain at dinner parties, I can tell you, Alec – we will lose everything as a country. We will be like Zimbabwe – in a few years time, we won’t even be able to produce maize meal. Look at the country 25 years ago – it used to produce enough food for the entire region. Today, Zimbabwe cannot produce maize meal – one of the easiest products to farm. They can’t even produce maize meal. 

Last week Vytjie Mentor joined you. She had quite a pedigree in the ANC. Then she was a whistleblower. Have you got others like her who have expressed interest in joining your team? 

Alec, I made it really very clear from day one when I launched The People’s Dialogue in December – at the time I said if we get the support, and secondly if we can establish the core values. Now that we’ve got the core values, we’ve got 2.4 million people behind us: we don’t want to really be a party of recycled politicians. 

But however, there are great South Africans out there who, when it was not fashionable to be out there and outspoken – we will accept them. But fortunately enough, Alec: one of the core values of our political party is electoral reform. And we are not going to wait for the ANC to run primaries. 

Public representatives are not going to be elected by us behind closed doors

For us – next year contesting the three local municipalities – all our councillors, including me. I’m making myself to be the mayoral candidate for Johannesburg. But at the end of the day, our supporters, our members are the ones who are going to elect us to be a public representative of our party. They are not going to be elected by us behind closed doors. 

Public representatives – from the mayor up to the councillor – every ward will decide who is the competent person to actually be a public representative. We are going to force (long-term) all the other parties to follow the same model, because it would be embarrassing for them to still be using the old model of public representatives being chosen behind closed doors. 

But, you know, a system like that does not suit the ANC. But it is not about the ANC – it’s about the country. We are going to really practise that kind of transparency for you to really be a councillor – let the people in your ward decide. 

It’s so interesting because every other part of the world has been radically affected by the fourth industrial revolution – technology – now Covid-19. So, why not politics? And Herman, I’m sure there are many who are listening to this who would like to support you. 

Just very quickly – your core principles. You said 2.4 million people are supporting you. Where did they come from and what is making them come?

What happened, Alec, when I conceived the idea of The People’s Dialogue – I called it the second CODESA. Remember, before the 1994 elections, we had the CODESA in Kempton Park. And then CODESA, you look at it 26 years later – the politicians negotiated a good deal for themselves, but not for civil society.

Non-negotiable core values

So basically, I then spoke to my family and said: let us give a gift to our nation where we can get civil society to be the one to shape the future of the country. And when I requested funding from my family, I said: if we can have 500,000 people giving us the mandate, it would be a nice size to start a political party. But based on non-negotiable core values. Core values of no racialism. If you were looking for a racial party, go somewhere else. Don’t even come and waste our time. We want aggressively to work towards building a non-racial South Africa. 

We unapologetically support a free market economy, where the business community, particularly SMMEs, must be the ones driving the economy. Government’s role is to create an enabling environment. A free, transparent one. We want social justice. We cannot really be a society where we are known by the world to be the most unequal society in the world. 

So we’ve got to work towards building a very strong middle class, so that 15, 20 years down the line: South Africa will be a country where the majority of its citizens are in the middle class category in an inclusive society. And we also want to have an inclusive economy where you use incentives. We want the rule of law – an almost complete breakdown of the rule of law. 

We have to give priority to make sure that if you commit crime in South Africa – there will be consequences. Lastly, it’s an electoral reform. We want South Africans to be the ones deciding who sits in Parliament, who sits in Council. People can not be public representatives decided upon the basis of having criminal activity. We want the communities to be the ones actually electing public representatives. 

Herman Mashaba, the founder and chairperson of The People’s Dialogue. Always good to talk with you, Herman. And we’ll be following the progress of your party and your Macron moment, perhaps, for this country into the future. Thank you for joining us again on Rational Radio.