Alec Hogg (00:02): In March, on our stage in Hermanus at BNC#8, Herman Mashaba said Helen Zille would not become mayor of Johannesburg, not even in the next life. Well, a fortnight ago, he told me he'd be disappointed with anything under 30% in Joburg. But I think, Herman, you were probably saying that because, well, you have to aim for the stars and you get to the moon. Because my goodness, you have got to the moon.

Herman Mashaba (00:27): Thank you.

Alec Hogg (00:31): When you look from an objective perspective at what has been achieved by ActionSA in this past election, well, maybe you're disappointed, but I think most commentators would imagine that you are ecstatic. So how do you really feel?

Herman Mashaba (00:47): I think mixed emotions, Alec, because honestly, as a trader, I always overstretch myself. And obviously I was overstretching myself and my team. But what we achieved in terms of votes... In Johannesburg, you might think we still received 16% like we did in 2021. But if you look at the number of votes we received, it's staggering. The reason why we do not really get the councillors is because we won too many [ward] votes. That's where the thing is.

Just to give you an example, Alec, are you aware I've got more votes in Soweto than the ANC? 38%. They're sitting at 25%. So Soweto is mine.

Alec Hogg (01:46): You said it would be. You said it would be. Now how did you get that right?

Herman Mashaba: Remember I told you three weeks ago, I spent a lot of money and time, more time, where I wrote an open letter to the people of Soweto. And I deployed my teams, not just to hand it out in the streets.

Herman Mashaba (02:16): They went house to house, so we could explain to the families the role that Soweto played and how the ANC has let them down over the last 32 years. That everybody else is enjoying the fruits of their work, because Soweto was instrumental in delivering 1994. And unfortunately, they are the biggest casualties. And I said, the mistake you guys are making is that you think you are punishing the ANC by not voting. Please, your vote counts. And they rewarded me. I'm a bigger political party in Soweto than the ANC.

Alec Hogg (02:57): That's a very important issue that you've just put your finger on, because there's always been this belief that our political party in South Africa is like our football club. You know, you just don't move from Chiefs. I don't care how good Pirates are, you stay with Chiefs if you're a Chiefs supporter. And political parties were the same. But it appears as though you've managed to break that and actually move people across.

Herman Mashaba (03:24): It's not only in Soweto, it's in all three metros. Tembisa: we wiped out all of Tembisa, the biggest voting bloc in Ekurhuleni. We took all the wards there. Atteridgeville, it's very interesting, where all these bigwigs from the ANC come from. Atteridgeville has got nine wards. ActionSA won eight of the nine wards.

In these elections... remember 2021, in all three metros we didn't get a single ward. This time, just in these three metros, 53 wards. That was an earthquake. 52. speaker says 53, then 52. EWN reported 54 wards across the Gauteng metros on 5 November.

Alec Hogg (04:13): Herman, explain to those who don't understand how the allocation of seats works, because that's huge. You didn't win a single ward, now you've won 53 wards. But leave Ekurhuleni and Tshwane out for the moment. In Joburg, you got not as many seats as last time. How is that possible?

Herman Mashaba (04:32): Yes, I think that's something that confuses me, because if you look at Johannesburg, let's focus on Johannesburg where I am. In Johannesburg, we won, I think, about 11 or 12 wards. And in the townships, even in Soweto where the ANC managed to retain their wards, we are number two. Including in the suburbs where the DA won, we are number two. We've attained almost three times the number of votes we received last time. But now I don't know how they work out the system of allocation of seats.

Alec Hogg (05:17): Proportional representation takes a bit of working out.

Herman Mashaba: Because look at 2021, Alec. We received just over half a million votes.

Herman Mashaba (05:32): This time we received 1.9 million votes, obviously at the national level. In 2021, when we first contested, we received just over 550,000 votes in the six municipalities. Now we've received just over 1.9 million votes. That's why we are the fifth-biggest political party in the country right now, officially. And we contested only 82 municipalities, whereas all these other parties above us contested 252 municipalities. Figures as stated by the speaker; not independently verified.

And Alec, let me also share something with you. We spent just under R80 million on the entire campaign, whereas the DA in Johannesburg alone spent over R200 million. We spent R80 million for the whole 82 municipalities where we contested. The DA in Johannesburg alone spent over R200 million.

And let me tell you something you'll find fascinating: voters can really be cruel and brutal. You remember two weeks ago, the big press conference? They bought new transformers for the people of Dobsonville and Meadowlands. Got them new water purification tanks and everything. Big press conference.

I took those wards with a big [majority]. People were saying, "Thank you very much, but we know who." I did not just win, I won them with an overwhelming majority. So that's why yesterday I said thank you to the DA: at least my supporters have got electricity and water now.

Alec Hogg (07:51): Now, Herman, I'm sure that people in Joburg are listening to this and watching this and saying, "We've got a problem here, because this fight between ActionSA and the DA is going to hurt us." You've been accused of lots of things. You've been accused of not wanting to work with the DA, well, with Helen Zille. And you don't want to be painted into a corner. I know you're a man of God and I know that you pray. You're going to need lots of wisdom in where you go from here. So where are you being guided at the moment on what the next step is going to be?

Herman Mashaba (08:27): Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I'm guided... I'm sure you're one of the people who know me. I'm not the kind of person that would lie. I stand on my values and my principles, and if I believe what I'm doing is the right thing to do. And I'm on record: that has always got to guide me. My grandfather taught me to behave that way. That's why I'm the only politician where people can't hold anything against me. They can go around lying about me being involved in whatever, including writing books. And unfortunately, later on it catches up with them, because Herman Mashaba will never steal a cent of public money.

So for me, I want to make it really very clear with the DA. Just to take you into confidence, as much as I've shared this, because it's already public knowledge: I received a letter from Geordin [Hill-Lewis], the leader of the DA, on Saturday. Because they wanted to talk about the three metros and others. I'm not in any of the negotiating teams, but obviously I get the reports. But I said to myself, before I give Geordin the response or put him in touch with our negotiating team, let me share with him the red flags that the party has got.

So I decided, before I reduced my response to writing, let me give him a call. Luckily he took my call. When I called he wasn't available, but 10 minutes later he returned my call. So I explained to him. I said, "Geordin, I would really want to work with the DA, but I'm afraid of the toxicity between Helen and me. It has reached a stage where, in my personal capacity, I can't work in an environment where I know someone wants to stab me in the back, wants to kill me." I said, "For the sake of the country, if you as the DA accept it, let Helen and I step back. We will allow you guys to take over Johannesburg as mayor."

Herman Mashaba (10:54): "We will support you putting someone else forward. I don't think you as the DA only have Helen. But I can tell you, ActionSA will not accept even having a physical meeting with you if you're not prepared to move. And I'm saying I'll also step back."

And secondly, in Tshwane, there's just no way anyone can expect ActionSA to allow anyone other than Nasiphi Moya. That woman has done amazing work. You cannot allow that to happen. But I said to you guys, you can also have Ekurhuleni. You can lead Ekurhuleni. You lead Joburg and Ekurhuleni, we lead Tshwane, but we co-govern. But you lead the two.

So I'm still waiting for them. Because honestly, personally, and I want South Africans to know: I don't think my relationship with Helen can be repaired. I don't want to repair it. I don't. And God has told me it would be dangerous. I take her to be a very dangerous person. But the DA, I know there are lots of good people.

That's why I left my business. I'm doing this expensive job, taking me away from my family. So I'm not enjoying my life like other business people. I've got to live in the sea. I told you that the other day. I spend so much of my time in the sea. I just come on shore to give the fish to my team on the ground, because I'm a professional fisherman. So it's a tough job.

But I said, for the sake of the country, let Helen and I step back, put in other teams. So you as the DA can tell me. And afterwards I reduced it to writing, so that you mustn't think otherwise, because I don't play games. So I reduced it to writing. So it's up to them to decide. And it's the position of our party. In fact, they were surprised...

Herman Mashaba (13:13): ...that I said I'll step back. But they have accepted that too. I explained it to my team afterwards. Because when I responded to Geordin, I hadn't spoken to the team, because I didn't expect to get that letter and I decided to respond immediately. And I explained to our team and they support it, because I know it was an issue not only for me, but for our entire party.

Alec Hogg (13:39): Herman, if you look at the way the voters have polled, what message are they sending you? When you reflect on this in your quiet time, what message are the voters sending? I ask this because Prince Mashele has given his analysis of the election and he's come up with what he thinks the voters are telling us. What do you think they are?

Herman Mashaba (14:07): Well, Prince Mashele and I... I work in the communities. I spend more time not reading books; I spend time in the ocean. Someone can write about fishing from a desk. I live in those communities. The black voters said to me: "We've been betrayed by the ANC and we don't trust the DA. You're the only person we trust." And I engaged them, and they said, "We are going to give you the mandate, but please, we've been left out of this democratic dispensation, and we played the role. The ANC was not the only party that played the role. We, the people of Soweto, of Tembisa, played the role."

They want a party that can represent all South Africans. And the people are saying to me, "Please, Herman, continue on that journey of building what Desmond [Tutu] spoke about, the rainbow nation." But it must be a rainbow nation with a social conscience. Social justice is one of our core values. And I'm committed to building a non-racial South Africa with a social heart. We can't leave people behind. We can't leave the people of Alexandra behind. They've now given me the mandate, and I'm acting with their mandate to build. And we need the private sector. Under our administration, we will create a conducive environment, because I know investors can only invest when you have a working government that doesn't tolerate corruption...

Herman Mashaba (16:03): ...that wants to create a professional public service, to appoint people on merit, not cadres and so forth. People know I've done it before in business. I've done it before in government, from 2016 to 2019. In 2019, Johannesburg was working. Investor confidence in Joburg in 2019...

If you look at investment attraction: before I took over as mayor of Johannesburg, no administration had ever exceeded R5 billion of investment. When I took over, the first year jumped to just over R9 billion. The second year came to over R17 billion. I remember when we gave our report to the Auditor-General for them to finalise our reports for 2018/19, I think we gave them a figure of R17.2 billion, and when they came back, the final report was R17.5 billion. And this does not include the R32 billion of the 154 buildings that I'd already expropriated. [Figures as stated; "expropriated" may refer to buildings reclaimed under the inner-city rejuvenation programme.]

Alec Hogg (17:24): Those buildings are a practical issue. Would that be part of your deal, if a deal is to be struck with the DA, or if the DA says no, we want to keep Helen, and the ANC presumably? Bringing back the buildings, reclaiming those buildings, bringing them back to productivity: would that be a line in the sand for you as well?

Herman Mashaba (17:50): It's actually one of my big priorities, and I'm excited, because ever since I left, I thought the ANC, through council, would reverse that policy, because it was approved by council in 2017. Fortunately, that is a policy approved by council. So this time around, I don't have to go through that rigorous, laborious process.

So if we take over, alone or with other political parties, we want the JPC to bring that report for noting. For noting, because that report is already approved by council. Then we can start reclaiming these properties and give them to the private sector to start turning Johannesburg into a construction site. I had already identified 643 hijacked buildings. So there's a huge, huge opportunity to turn that city around. But obviously...

Alec Hogg (18:58): Herman, sorry. I just want to throw these ideas at you from Prince Mashele, because he says the voters are telling us they don't trust the DA to rule. They want ActionSA with the DA, to keep an eye on the DA. So they want you there with the DA. They don't trust the ANC at all, he says. And I think you said, the last time we spoke, it's like a person with a heart problem and they've sent a brain surgeon to try and fix it. So Prince Mashele agrees with you on that assessment. If that's the case, they also did vote for Helen Zille and the DA. There were lots of votes, more votes than ActionSA got. So is there a case to be made that maybe you should reassess that approach towards Helen?

Herman Mashaba (19:58): No, unfortunately, ActionSA will not accept voting for Helen Zille, because I think our people will not feel safe, and we would really like to protect ActionSA. So if the DA does not have anyone else, then they're most welcome to go and talk to the ANC. If ActionSA must be in opposition...

Herman Mashaba (20:27): ...we'll be happy. In fact, honestly, if I look at it, if you have an ANC-DA government in Joburg, my goodness, then it's going to be a party for me in 2029, because you're going to have a dysfunctional government. It'll be chaos.

Alec Hogg (20:47): Now that's an interesting point, because that was the other thing that Prince said. Prince said whoever goes into partnership with the ANC will be punished, because the voters have been saying in this election that we don't want the ANC in government in any shape or form. So in a way, by saying you're not going to have Zille with ActionSA, you might be pushing them into the arms of the ANC. Is this something you're scheming about, that perhaps it'll be good for you come 2029?

Herman Mashaba (21:19): Let them go there. Fortunately, look at how we were rewarded. Alec, remember I told you what I did in Tshwane. At the time, when I put in [Nasiphi Moya], it was a deal breaker to the ANC to say I govern. Because my numbers are such that I'm a kingmaker in all three metros. I'm a kingmaker for both the ANC and the DA, unless they want to work together. And I can tell you, the ANC and DA working together suits me even better. And I don't have to have the problem of having to worry. Then I focus on 2021 and watch them fighting, collapsing government, and it will help me to focus on 2029. Because an ANC-DA [arrangement] will be the biggest disaster of a government.

Alec Hogg (22:21): So if I understand you correctly now, the idea is for Nasiphi Moya to continue as mayor of Tshwane with the support of the DA. For the DA, with the support of ActionSA, to run Ekurhuleni. And the DA, with the support of ActionSA, to run Johannesburg, but not with Helen Zille as the mayor. If they insist on Helen Zille, deal off. Is that the way I read it?

Herman Mashaba (22:47): Absolutely. That's what we've said to Geordin. We don't even have to have a meeting.

Alec Hogg (22:59): But what happens in Tshwane then, if the deal's off in Joburg? Can that be negotiated separately?

Herman Mashaba (23:06): No, no. In Tshwane, it's in my letter, and in my discussion: we can't have Cilliers Brink. The way he treated Nasiphi Moya, no way. So these two, Helen Zille and Cilliers Brink, are deal breakers for us. We don't even have to have a meeting.

Alec Hogg (23:32): And your other position is that you will remain in opposition, you will not go into partnership with the ANC?

Herman Mashaba (23:45): Well, no. If the DA doesn't want to talk and the ANC is willing, with ActionSA governing, taking the leadership, we'll do that deal. We have proven it. We did it in Tshwane. And you can imagine, in Tshwane at the time, we only had 19 seats. Right now, you are aware we're bigger than the ANC in Tshwane: 48 councillors, from up from 19.

So I think, fortunately, ActionSA has got the cards. And I'm not going to spoil them, and we're not going to be dictated to by anyone. We are going to do what we shared with the people who gave us the votes, especially in the townships. I lived in the sea.

Alec Hogg (24:42): 48 seats in Tshwane, 74 for the DA and 44 for the ANC. So it's going to be tough to put a coalition together without the DA, or not, in Tshwane?

Herman Mashaba (25:01): With what? No, it's easy. I've got the support of other parties. And all the other parties in all three metros want us to take the leadership if I don't do the deal with the DA.

Herman Mashaba (25:29): All the other parties are saying, they are begging me, "Please, if we've got to support you with the ANC, you guys take the leadership."

Alec Hogg (25:42): And just briefly, Ekurhuleni: the arithmetic there is different.

Herman Mashaba (25:45): No, in all three. Yes.

Alec Hogg (25:50): So how are you seeing that one?

Herman Mashaba (25:53): Well, I said to the DA, also in writing, that they can have Ekurhuleni and we'll co-govern with them. They can have the possibly "mayorship".

Alec Hogg (26:05): OK. But is that separate? What I'm trying to get to is: is it an overall deal, or would you negotiate each one separately?

Herman Mashaba (26:15): No, no, no. For us as ActionSA, these three metros, we look at them as one. So if we can do a deal on one, then we can do it on [all three]. Unlike other provinces. To give an example, Athol Trollip, I think he's got five or six municipalities where we're needed. And we've given them the go-ahead to support the DA in those municipalities. Just to give an example.

Herman Mashaba (26:42): Athol is leading our negotiations there, and we've given him the mandate to support the DA in those municipalities.

Alec Hogg (26:57): Tell me about Laingsburg. That's an interesting one. Where did that come from? It's in the middle of the Cape, and here you are the biggest party.

Herman Mashaba (27:07): Yeah, I think Athol and Michael Beaumont, Dereleen James, Lerato did some amazing stuff. When I was invited, unfortunately I had other commitments. And when they came back, they said, in fact, they thought we were going to get an outright majority. But for us, from nowhere, to be the biggest party the first time contesting there, it's overwhelming. It's humbling, you know? So Dereleen and John Moodey are busy putting together the government there, because we are the leading party. So you're going to have an ActionSA mayor in Laingsburg.

And look at Cape Town. Dereleen... we had no budget for Cape Town.

Herman Mashaba (28:05): Basically, we used TikTok. Did you see? Seven councillors in the City of Cape Town. We had no budget. But Dereleen and I said, "No, guys, we'll use TikTok and social media." We used TikTok. We got a team to follow up with community meetings. We had no budget for Cape Town, and we've got seven councillors there.

Alec Hogg (28:32): Before this election, there was a view, perhaps amongst the political establishment, that ActionSA was a shooting star. It had done well to begin with, then not so well in 2024, and might not be around for that much longer. That was a perception. Now there's knowledge that you are here to stay. There's no question you're here to stay. Does that change your view on the GNU?

Herman Mashaba (29:01): Can I remind you of something, Alec? You remember at the beginning of the year, when I came to Hermanus, Rob Hersov spoke, and you asked him a question about ActionSA. He said, "No, Herman Mashaba, ActionSA is a lost cause. Forget about it." Remember, he spoke before me and I responded to him. You remember that?

Alec Hogg: In March. Yep. It was a good speech.

Herman Mashaba (29:30): You remember what he said when we asked him about ActionSA? He said, "No, those guys are gone." But look at the PA [Patriotic Alliance] in Johannesburg: we reduced them. They're only left with five councillors. They had 10; now they've got five.

Alec Hogg (29:48): But you're a businessman. You know it's good to be underestimated. You went into this election very underestimated. I think the polls had you at 10% in Joburg, for instance, and elsewhere not so high. But now you have to be taken seriously. The numbers tell you you've got two million voters. What happens with your view now on the GNU?

Herman Mashaba (30:11): The GNU doesn't need me. I don't have the numbers in parliament as yet. So I think let them continue. Honestly, it would be a big mistake to get into the GNU. In fact, the GNU also helped me, because the people in the townships, my constituents, are not benefiting anything. In fact, the situation is getting worse for them under the GNU. If you listen to all my public speeches, because I had lots of public meetings, two or three public meetings in the townships, I would show them how bad things have gone and prove with evidence that their lives are getting worse under this GNU.

So I'm really glad that God gave me the wisdom. When the ANC came to my house and offered me a senior ministerial position, I literally wanted to throw them out, but they were decent men. I just said, "No, thank you very much, guys. Because basically what you are trying to do is silence me." I said, "Herman Mashaba is not that kind of person. When I do something, I do it for the right reasons."

My grandfather taught me. I was really lucky. I lost my father at the age of two, but my grandfather, uneducated, had some amazing predictions and prophecy for me. On the day I was born... I don't know if you've read my book, about what my grandfather said to the community. That's why when you go to GaRamotse now, people still call me Hyman.

Alec Hogg (32:06): I remember that. That was your name. Not Herman, Hyman.

Herman Mashaba: Yes. Hyman was never my official name. If you look at my birth certificate, my passbook, my.., it's Philip something. There's no Hyman. My grandfather...

Herman Mashaba (32:35): ...because of his excitement at my arrival, went around telling everyone. Even my parents ended up calling me Hyman, everybody. But when I became a teenager, this name was just too much for me, because I knew what it meant. Because my grandfather instilled in me that failure is not an option, and I must learn to live my life. I need to live my dreams.

And also make sure never to sit on the fence. That's one of the things that makes a lot of people uncomfortable about me, because I say it. So what you see is what you get. I don't play games with people. Like right now, when I received Geordin's letter, I thought to myself, I don't think he'll get it from the letter alone. Let me call him and explain, so that when he receives my letter, he understands. So the DA must understand I don't play games, because honestly, I don't play games.

Alec Hogg (33:40): What about the fact now that the ANC is down at just over 30%, and yet it's running the country as though it had more than 50%? Is there not a case to be made now to call an early national election?

Herman Mashaba (34:01): Well, that would really suit me. I don't know how one would do that, because I think you'd need the ANC and DA to accept that. Honestly, to be honest with you, I don't understand why the DA is still entertaining this GNU, because it's hurting them. They're being taken advantage of. Because honestly, tell me, what benefit are we getting out of this GNU?

And I think if the DA, with their strategists, could stop focusing on propaganda and focus on real issues, this is an ideal time to say to the nation... and I can tell you they will have the support. I'll mobilise to defend it, to see that we have early elections. But obviously it's got to be called by the DA.

But unfortunately, the DA focuses on propaganda and lies. That's where their weakness is. Remember I told you, they are a waste of money. You can imagine, the DA in Johannesburg, you know how much they spent? R200 million, just in Johannesburg. Herman Mashaba and ActionSA spent under R80 million for the whole country. Just over R200 million. And honestly, remember I told you, I see a lot of wastage. And they helped me with the substations and so forth for my voters. We are celebrating.

Alec Hogg (35:49): Herman, what message can you leave with the people of Gauteng in particular, where you are now playing such an important role?

Herman Mashaba (35:58): I've given them a commitment and I'm not going to let them down. The people who voted for me, I want them at the table. From now on, those people of Soweto, of Alexandra, of Tembisa, who gave me the mandate, are going to be at the table this time. They've been left out, and Herman Mashaba is going to use his privileged position to bring them to the table without disrupting anyone.

We must run a party with a soul. We cannot accept this inequality, but we're not going to address inequality with reckless policies. We need investment. We need to create a professional public service, because once you can put together a professional public service and fight corruption, you will see how quickly this country will grow. With these three metros, and the business community ready to invest in municipalities where ActionSA governs, we know we'll bring in massive investment, because we are going to run a transparent government.

I can tell you, in municipalities where ActionSA is going to govern, we commit that every quarter the MMCs, the political leadership, must report. We must have a half-day or full-day session. I want every MMC to report to society what they've achieved. So anyone who is going to govern with us, whether we're in the leadership or not, it will be part of our coalition agreement that every quarter, we're not just going to debate issues in council where people sing. We must account. We must call a press conference, the media must be there to hold us to account, and every MMC must report on the progress made in their portfolio.

Alec Hogg (38:24): Herman Mashaba, the leader of ActionSA. When he came into the political environment, there were many who thought he would make a huge impact. He certainly did in 2021. The star tended to, well, soften a little, but he's back with a bang, and ActionSA is certainly here: the kingmaker in Gauteng. We've had him outlining exactly what he will and will not do as far as negotiations are concerned. We look forward to successful conclusions of those, for the long-suffering people of the richest province in South Africa. I'm Alec Hogg, with your BizNews Edge.

Herman Mashaba (39:10): Thank you.

BN Edge | What next for Gauteng? Mashaba pieces together the province's coalition puzzle