Alec Hogg (00:02) Last month, when he was in this studio with me, Dean Macpherson told us Ipsos, the polling organisation, was wrong. He said the EFF was dead in KwaZulu-Natal. He said the race for Durban's mayor would come down to two parties, MK or the DA. Well, the votes are in. Some of his calls landed, some didn't. He's back to help us know which ones did and which didn't.

Alec Hogg (00:31) How would you rate your crystal ball? Because the one part you've got to be unhappy about is KwaDukuza, Stanger, where you were quite confident that the DA would be the winner, and it went MK's way. [Flag: results have the ANC and DA tied on seats in KwaDukuza; MK did not win it. Macpherson corrects this in his answer.] But how do you rate yourself, your crystal ball rather?

Dean Macpherson (00:50) Well, I think if you looked at the six balls that you need to win the lottery, I think I picked four or five out of the winners, if you want to put it like that. So I think I was on the money that MK would not get a majority in eThekwini. In fact, they were very far from it. And that's maybe a point for discussion, about how they have seen a dramatic decrease in their support, both provincially and in eThekwini. It will now be a choice between Haniff Hoosen, the DA's mayoral candidate, and I suspect Zandile Gumede, who will be [MK's] mayoral candidate. You know, she's on trial for R340 million [the Durban Solid Waste tender at the centre of the case is about R320 million; Gumede has pleaded not guilty] corruption in the Durban Solid Waste case.

I wasn't too far off in KwaDukuza. I'd said that we would either be the largest party or the second-largest party. We're actually 1,400 votes behind the ANC in KwaDukuza, but we are tied for seats with them. We emerged as the second-largest party in Msunduzi, [and] overtook the ANC there. And I also said that we would win uMngeni, not just by 42 votes this time. It turned out by thousands of votes, and we increased our support from 48% to 61%. We've seen a lot of gains up and down the coast. And provincially, we added 110,000 new votes to our tally, where we went up to 14.2%.

So, you know, I said to you then, Alec, and I maintain now, that doing business in KZN as a political party is very difficult, because you have 10 opponents and more. And so for the DA to achieve what it did in KZN, and be the deciding factor in so many municipalities, and be in pole position to lead the metro in eThekwini, I think is testament to the reach and the growth of the party in KwaZulu-Natal.

Alec Hogg (03:08) And just to remind people of a few things here: Dean Macpherson, apart from being the Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure, is the leader [provincial chairperson] of the DA in KwaZulu-Natal. And that's really the purpose of this conversation, in our series of talking to the leaders of different parties in different parts of the country. And he also is going to be involved, no doubt, in the negotiations.

But actually, that's my next question, because in our last conversation, when I was asking you about this, you said, "No, no, you don't go to the penalty shootout until the 90 minutes have been played." Now those 90 minutes have been played. Now we're in the penalty shootout. So who's doing the kicking for the DA?

Dean Macpherson (03:52) So we have a national negotiating team that is led by our national officials. And then in each province, we have a team of people that is made up of myself and two or three others, where we have been meeting parties on a one-on-one basis to hear them out, to sound them out, to see what their commitment is, particularly in eThekwini, to support either Haniff Hoosen or Zandile Gumede. And we put it as plainly as that. That is the choice that every councillor will face. I said that to you when I was sitting in your studio. And that choice will come to pass in a week or two.

So, you know, we are listening. We are open to talk. It's been quite gruelling over the last couple of days, going through party by party. We have a number of parties that have single seats. We've obviously had the ANC, the IFP and ourselves, which I would sort of term the anchor tenants of a potential coalition, but we still have some way to go.

Now, Alec, you know the difference between the DA and other parties when we negotiate, and I've seen this: many parties will come in and the first question they ask is, "What position can you give me?" We negotiate from a different principle that says, can we agree on a set of principles and values, including stabilising local government, dealing with corruption, making sure that services are delivered to all communities and that we run a good administration? If we find commonality in that, then we go into positions. So that might be a little bit different to other parties, but I've been really impressed to see the commitment that others have to that set of values and principles that the DA holds dear.

Alec Hogg (06:02) That's interesting. And I want to go back to 2021. I did a bit more research into it, and it's actually a very, very sad story. You could have had the mayor, but then there was a party called the ABC [Abantu Batho Congress] that switched sides at the last minute, and the leader of the ABC [Philani Mavundla] became the deputy mayor as a consequence of switching sides, and he gave the ANC back the mayoralty. What are the chances of that happening this time round? Or is the arithmetic very different?

Dean Macpherson (06:40) It's a very good point that you make, Alec. In fact, we were nine seats short of winning the mayoralty there. And I sat at that table and watched party after party come contests and say, "We will support the DA." And we said, "Wonderful." And when they went to that vote, it turned out differently. And I don't quote Julius Malema often, but I will quote him in this instance, when he said, actually, the leader of that "coup" among small parties was a lady by the name of Makhosi Khoza, who was at the time the leader of ActionSA in the municipality, and sort of led that bloc of smaller parties to go and vote for the speaker, mayor and deputy mayor at that time.

We've learnt our lessons, I've learnt the lessons of that. And so we've approached it very differently with those small parties. And we know when people are telling us the truth, and we know when people are maybe trying to string us along. And I think that the difference here is that you now have three big parties that will anchor that coalition instead of one.

And, you know, I'm fairly confident that we've now got the numbers after those discussions with those small parties, because we only need three more votes from them to cross that line. That makes quite a big difference this time. But of course, you know, we are very open to the shenanigans of other parties, parties that want to insert themselves, parties that want to claim kingmaker status and so on. And so we are very alive to that this time, and we'll be making sure that all necessary precautions are taken to avoid what we saw in 2021.

Alec Hogg (08:45) It's an interesting point you raised there about Makhosi Khoza, the ActionSA person, because that's hard to find in the material when you research it. It doesn't say much about that. Maybe people don't quote Julius Malema as much as they should. Is she still around, Makhosi Khoza?

Dean Macpherson (09:08) I think she had a spectacular fallout with the party. I haven't had any contact or any discussions with her, so I'm not entirely sure what she does with her time these days.

Alec Hogg (09:23) What I meant was, is she still around in eThekwini, but clearly not. And the reason for that question is that ActionSA is important in Gauteng, as we well know, and it does have, I think it's seven seats now in eThekwini. [Confirmed: ActionSA won 7 of 223 seats.] So it could be a player, and could indeed be an ally. Or has the behaviour of last time round soured you on that?

Dean Macpherson (09:48) Well, I think, Alec, we do have long memories about how people behave. And so we approach everything with caution. We want to make sure that we have a team to get across the line. And the DA has been very clear that we will be very happy to talk to any political party that shares our values, that will support our mayoral candidate and commits to stable government. So whichever party that is, is more than welcome to join our crusade in eThekwini. But what we won't subject ourselves to is dishing out pounds of flesh, only for that to be used or traded as a negotiating tool with other political parties.

Alec Hogg (10:51) It does appear as though KZN is different. And it is; it's always been. The old province of Natal was different. If you go back to the creation of the Union, it was a close-run thing for Natal to become part of the Union of South Africa back then. So we're used to this, and as you said earlier, it's a tough place to be a politician. But the fact that you can work with the ANC in the provincial government, the Government of Provincial Unity: have lessons been learnt for the party generally from that experience?

Dean Macpherson (11:26) Absolutely. You know, many people didn't give it six months. In fact, MK tried to bring it down on the 15th of December, and it survived. And the interesting point, actually, and I've made this to a number of colleagues: if you look at the three parties in the GPU, the Government of Provincial Unity, all three parties went up in support. And that is a very interesting point, because when you are in government, you're able to campaign on that success and say, "Here we are. This is what we're achieving." And that was across the board, for the DA, the ANC and the IFP. Now, while it's not always wise to compare a local government election outcome with a national election outcome, there are some inferences that can be made.

Dean Macpherson (12:39) So maybe let me just say this. An inference that can be made from the GPU is that MK got 45% in 2024. In 2026, they got about 35% in the province. So they've seen a dramatic decline in provincial support. Why is that, Alec? Because they have not been able to be in government. They haven't been able to give expression to what they claim they could do. And they also haven't been able to access government resources, which, if the management of their party funds is anything to go by, wouldn't have gone so well for the province.

So I think being out of government has been detrimental to MK. I think keeping MK out of government has been beneficial to the three parties in the GPU, and being in the GPU has been beneficial from an electoral standpoint for the three parties there. And I would advocate that if we were able to do something like that in eThekwini again, MK would probably see a further decline in support between 2026 and 2029.

Alec Hogg (14:03) It's an interesting thesis. I just wanted to get a little bit more granular here, and that's on Phoenix. I recall in our conversation you said that MK was telling the voters in Phoenix that if the DA came in, they would have to pay for their water and lights, whatever the case might be, and they voted for MK as a result of that. So what now? Let's just say that the eThekwini mayoralty comes to you, you're running the council in a coalition. What happens to Phoenix?

Dean Macpherson (14:43) Well, actually, in Phoenix they voted for the DA, Alec.

Alec Hogg (14:46) Did they?

Dean Macpherson (14:47) Yes. So we did very well in those communities of Phoenix and Chatsworth. They've been incredibly loyal to the party. And even despite the threats of MK saying, "If you vote for the DA, we'll cut off your water and lights," they still came out in record numbers, because they know as much as we do that we are a constitutional democracy, where everyone has a right to basic services and no political party can threaten anyone. And so we did very well.

I think the difference between Haniff as a mayor and Zandile Gumede as a mayor is that Haniff is going to start delivering for all communities, regardless of whether they voted for him or not, because that is the right thing to do as a mayor. What would Zandile Gumede do as a mayor? Well, I think she's really proven that when she was the mayor, Durban Solid Waste collapsed because she was too busy benefiting from it herself. [Gumede is on trial in the DSW case and has pleaded not guilty] Services across the municipality, and particularly in townships, collapsed to record lows, because actually there was no care about the communities that voted for her party at the time.

And so there can be no doubt that there's a lot of work to do. There are 13,000 water leaks in the city. There is sewage that runs down streets at any time. I made this point as well, that there is a record budget of R75 billion, but the infrastructure spend is at a record low. Those two things cannot be true at the same time, where you have more money than ever, but you spend less money than ever on infrastructure. And so Haniff is going to put an adjustment budget together that will prioritise R10 billion in infrastructure spending over the next financial year, which will focus on, firstly, maintenance of what we do have; [secondly,] fixing what is broken; and then thirdly, building what is needed for the future. And that's really what eThekwini desperately needs at this time.

Alec Hogg (17:08) But you're going to have, presumably, the ANC as part of that government, and they've been running the place into the ground. So how do you reconcile those two approaches?

Dean Macpherson (17:20) Well, of course, that's a very, very important point. And we, as the mayor, will have a very big say in the budget. We've already had an initial discussion with them and said, "These are our priorities." And without saying too much, I can tell you that there was no disagreement about prioritising infrastructure spending and about making sure that services are delivered. Of course, it's always: don't believe me for what I say, believe me for what I do. And so we will hold all of our partners [to that].

And I really do want to make this point. I think that what we've also learnt, particularly in the GPU, is that it is about partnership. It's not about one party trying to dominate another. It is a contestation of ideas, as opposed to a contestation of power, when you're in government. And I think that the lessons have been learnt through the GPU by all of those political parties, that we have to work together, that we have to prioritise infrastructure spending, and that we must get those projects off the ground.

And of course, where we're not getting that support, we will also go to the public and say, "Listen, we're having a problem here," and we will have to play open cards and be honest with the public where we are meeting resistance. I think that given enough time, and a focus, and a plan that our mayor will table, I'm pretty sure that it will find broad support across all the political parties, because it will truly focus on all communities, for the first time.

Alec Hogg (19:14) It's so interesting, the point you were making: don't listen to what they say, but to what they do. If one follows the narrative, this is what it sounds like in KZN, and I apologise because I should have checked on Phoenix. But the narrative is that the DA did not have the support of the Indian community: you can see that in KwaDukuza, Stanger; you can see that in Phoenix. And that's the narrative that has certainly been given out there. Now you've explained that the facts are different in both of those instances.

And I guess what I need to ask you is how much of the statements that we're hearing, of the media drama and noise, should we be paying attention to? Again, [Cyril] Ramaphosa is quoted now as saying, "We don't want to work with the DA," or "Don't work with the DA," which is strange when you have a look at KZN. So how do you give a rational person an insight on how to play this?

Dean Macpherson (20:21) So I also know that in a number of political parties, there are always people that are for and against parties working with this party or that. And so they will often plant deliberate stories to try and shape a narrative, and try and shape an outcome that one faction may wish to have over another.

And so certainly, from the perspective that I have, and I learnt this in 2024, you really have to be able to decipher where these things come from, number one. Number two, what is the meaning of them, including the timing of them? So, as an example, it's interesting that the story comes out from a meeting that apparently took place on Monday, where the President allegedly said he doesn't want to work with the DA. It only then finds expression on a Wednesday, the day before the NEC meets. That seems a little bit strange to me. If it was so, why didn't it come out on Monday or Tuesday? So I'm not saying that that story is true or false. I'm just saying that you have to maybe look beyond the headlines and try and piece together what is really going on.

At the end of the day, the truth of the matter is that no matter what is put out in the headlines, on social media or on videos, it comes down to a group of leaders sitting down and saying, "Can we agree on one, two and three? Are you prepared to commit to this? Let's go ahead." That's actually the only thing that matters. And of course, some people may find this a very nerve-wracking time. Some people who are maybe political junkies find this sort of House of Cards in real time. And so people also can egg things on more than they are, or they can dramatise things more than they are. So we just have to stick to our lane. We've got to keep talking. We've got to find a solution that works for everyone. And I'm not really fazed by what the front pages scream every day.

Alec Hogg (22:38) Just to close off with: what was your big surprise in KZN, or your most happy surprise, and what was your greatest disappointment after the election results were released?

Dean Macpherson (22:53) The big surprise for me, Alec, and I think I intuitively knew this, was that the DA won four 100% black wards in the uMngeni municipality. These are township and rural areas, and you know those areas quite well. And why is it that they voted for a political party that many people say is a white-only party, that only delivers for the suburbs? These residents went out and elected our ward councillors over MK and the ANC, considering that MK actually got more votes than us in 2024, and we would technically have lost that municipality. That for me was a surprise, in that I kind of knew that that would happen, but I was surprised by how much had happened.

And that really just goes to show that when people get a taste of DA government, with a competent mayor like Chris [Pappas] is, people then go and reward us for that. And we saw that in many municipalities across the province, deep rural wards, winning there. That was extraordinary.

What I was most disappointed with, I think, is I would have liked us to do a little bit better in eThekwini. We got 60,000 more votes than we did in 2021, and we didn't go up to the extent that I would have liked, because the turnout was so high. So we turned out a record number of voters, but it didn't translate into 10 or 20 new seats. It just goes to show how hard it is to do politics: you could increase dramatically, but your opponents increased dramatically as well. So I would have liked a little bit more, but you've got to take the swings with the roundabouts.

And I think overall, what we did was extraordinary. It's given us that opportunity to lead the municipalities, at least in eThekwini and in others. And we're going to certainly do our best over the next couple of days to get that across [the line]. And if we are able to pull that off, and if we can replicate the uMngeni story in eThekwini and other places, then I think that the DA possibly could be, you know, maybe in pole position to be the premier of the province in 2029.

Alec Hogg (25:25) Well, there are two little issues that I've just got to add here as we close. I was in an area which is called Mpofana, which is Mooi River. And there was a wonderful DA councillor who'd been elected there. He really worked very hard. In fact, he died putting up a poster, when part of an electricity cable that had been cut by someone... Ken Denysschen.

Dean Macpherson (25:43) Denysschen. Yes, Ken Denysschen, yes.

Alec Hogg (25:53) Wherever Ken is today, he would be delighted to see there are now two councillors in Mpofana for the DA. So it's a hundred percent [increase].

Dean Macpherson (25:58) Yes, correct. It's a record. We've grown 100%.

Alec Hogg (26:00) And the second thing, I think, from a broader perspective, is that what you heard today from Dean Macpherson is well worth just absorbing and considering: the experience of the engagement between the DA, the ANC and the IFP in KwaZulu-Natal is proven now over two years. And who knows if that's going to be a template for the country as a whole. We don't know. There are lots of negotiations still to go, but it does give the [thoughtful] patriot room for optimism. Dean Macpherson is the head [provincial chairperson] of the KwaZulu-Natal Democratic Alliance. He's also the Minister of Public Works and Infrastructure in the national Cabinet. I'm Alec Hogg, with your BizNews Edge.

BN Edge | Macpherson's KZN scorecard: the calls the DA got right, and the misses