The DA set out to win Johannesburg, and it did: 91 seats, up from 71, and first place in South Africa's economic heartland. But it fell 45 seats short of a majority, and the two parties that could get Helen Zille into the mayor's office both came with strings attached. ActionSA's Herman Mashaba had made her candidacy a deal-breaker; the ANC had spent the campaign on the receiving end of her attacks. Zille told Alec Hogg why she found Mashaba's condition absurd, why she was keeping her hands off the talks, and why she read the ANC's response to its worst local result as a sign that South Africa's democracy was maturing. She also looked back three decades to a hostile press conference at the Carlton Centre, explained the whiteboard triangle she once drew in the Drakensberg, and set out the DA's next target: becoming the biggest party in the country..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Alec Hogg: Well, the DA set out to win Johannesburg, and it did. Helen Zille's party is now the largest in South Africa's economic heartland. But winning the most seats doesn't make you mayor. She's got 91 seats, up from 71, but needs 136 in a 270-seat council. And the two parties that could get her there come with conditions.One is led by Herman Mashaba, who told our conference, BNC#8, in Hermanus in March that Helen would never be mayor, not even in the next life. He reiterated that in our conversation this morning, saying that he and Helen Zille need to step away because of the toxicity in their relationship. The other party that could be a partner is the ANC, the party she has spent nine months blaming for the city's collapse. Justifiably? But still, it won't make them very happy to work with the DA mayoral candidate.Helen Zille joins me. Before we go into this, Helen, how long do you have to conclude a coalition? I recall with the national government, I think it was 14 days. Is it something similar in local government?Helen Zille: It's the same. It's 14 days from last night, or basically 14 days from today.Alec Hogg: Why so little time, given that there's so much at stake?Helen Zille: That's the time that the Constitution has given us.Alec Hogg: OK, so there's not much you can do about that. It is what it is.Helen Zille: No, there's nothing we can do about it.Alec Hogg: So you've got 14 days, two weeks. That's going to be a hectic time, presumably, of coalition negotiations, discussions. Have you got this all diarised?Helen Zille: Yes. And fortunately, I'm not on the negotiating team this time. That is being led by Ashor Sarupen. He's our chair of the Federal Council, and that duty falls to him. I know he'll do a very good job. I know that he started with a framework of principles, which is where we always start, and we move from there.Alec Hogg: How personal is it? Because I had a conversation this morning with Herman Mashaba, who reiterated again that ActionSA will not support the DA if you are the mayoral candidate.Helen Zille: Well, you know, it's personal from Herman's side, and then somehow people make it a moral equivalence. I've never had a bad word to say about Herman publicly. There's absolutely no negativity or rancour or vendetta coming from my side at all. We've had our differences at times on matters of very important principle, but that happens all the time in politics, and people can't carry that bitterness on for more than a decade.Alec Hogg: He says, though, that there's so much toxicity between the two of you, from his perspective, that he would rather step back, and he wants you to step back as well.Helen Zille: Well, let me just say, "between the two of you" basically means that it's coming from both sides, which it isn't. And just imagine this, Alec. I mean, the very fact that people ask me this question makes me chuckle. Because just imagine if the DA had got 16% and Herman had led the party that got 35%, and we said our condition is that the person for whom 35% of Johannesburg voted may not be the mayor. That would just be absurd. No one would even entertain that. Because what Herman is saying is his rancour is more important than the voters of Joburg. And then he calls us arrogant.You see, there's a lot of very interesting stuff going on here. And that journalists even entertain that argument illustrates to me that they will bend over backwards to make people appear rational in contexts where they clearly aren't. But they would never do that for the DA, of course. There's a serious double standard.Alec Hogg: Yeah, but politics, wow. As I get to learn more about your field... It's incredibly emotive and not always rational.Helen Zille: I like to be rational, Alec. I like to be rational. We like to be evidence-led, we like to be values-driven, and we like to be fair and rational. That's what we like to be.Alec Hogg: When you look at the election, from 71 seats to 91 seats, you are short of the 136 that you need to be the majority party. But surely you'd be satisfied, percentage-wise. That's a pretty hefty increase.Helen Zille: Yes. Well, we are the only party that is going to get more seats in council compared to the last time. Herman Mashaba is going to get fewer, so he actually went backwards in Joburg. The ANC is going to get much fewer. They've actually got nine seats too many as it is, because of this phenomenon called the overhang. And of course, Rise Mzansi wasn't around in 2021, so they'll obviously get a few more seats because they didn't exist before. But we're the only party that has gone forward in Joburg, and very substantially.Alec Hogg: What worked in this campaign? If you were to go back and say, was it worth the abseiling, was it worth going through the potholes that were mini dams?Helen Zille: Well, in an election you have to decide what you're offering the voters. And what we were offering the voters was better governance, and governing Joburg in such a way that would put it on a pathway to prosperity and attract more investment and economic growth. That was our offer to the voters. And a lot of voters bought it. They said, yes, on your track record, on the evidence you've provided, on the jobs growth in places with DA governance, it's no contest. The DA is making a credible offer and we support it.Herman's main offer, the thing that reverberated with his voter base, was his strong stance against illegal immigration. Of course, we also take a strong stance against illegal immigration, but we stop very short of xenophobia, which we don't think is helpful. But that was his issue in the election. I mean, he did no ground campaigning. He did no issue campaigning except that one thing. It was basically a single-issue campaign. And then he said he had unfinished business, but let's leave that where it is.I'm not fighting with him, and I never have. Not once in this election campaign have I argued with ActionSA. I've dealt with the state of Joburg. So the different offers appeal to different constituencies.The interesting thing is that through the DA's Minister of Home Affairs, we've deported illegal immigrants to a far greater extent than the ANC ever did when it held that portfolio. And of course, Herman Mashaba hasn't deported a single person, and he won't be able to from a local government perspective, because it's not a local government issue. So, you know, all of that noise appeals to people, but the follow-up won't be possible.Alec Hogg: Let me take you back a couple of decades, when we reconnected from our Rand Daily Mail days. You were at what was then the Carlton Centre, and I remember the press conference. I remember the hostility from journalists, people who were clearly carrying some kind of political baggage against you. And you said at that time, when we had a private conversation, that you wanted to change the shape, change the face of the political party that you were then involved with. If you go to today, was what we've now seen in Joburg in your wildest dreams?Helen Zille: Well, one thing I'm quite good at is understanding the forces that are moving the system and then strategically working out how to engage with them on a basis of principle. And at the time, I remember it well, it was outrageous to stand up against the ANC. At that time, the journalists thought it was racist to oppose the ANC. The ANC carried all the moral high ground. They were virtue personified, and any white person especially standing up against the ANC and saying this is actually a wolf in sheep's clothing was pilloried.And I don't mind being pilloried. If I believe something is true, I will say it. And that's what I've done my whole political career. I've been pilloried more times than I've been supported, but that's fine. I don't mind about being politically correct at all. I just want to be historically correct. And when people look back in history, although they will never concede that anyone else was wrong, I hope that the strategic insights that the DA brought to the party will be considered to have been the right ones in the context.Alec Hogg: And another interesting milestone in our journey was at a business conference in the Drakensberg, where you brought out a whiteboard and marked on it a triangle, saying it's a fight between the DA and the EFF, those values, with the ANC crumbling. Again, at the time it seemed, you know, she's lost her mind. And yet today we've progressed a long way along that path.Helen Zille: Yes. You know, it's basically between racial nationalism and liberal democracy, constitutionalism, the rule of law, a market economy. Those are the two polar opposites. And at the time, the EFF represented that most clearly. That's why I said these are at opposite ends of the spectrum of South African politics. But I knew that those things would shift.All I was aiming at was to grow the DA slice till it was more than half that triangle. And that has always been the strategy. But of course, I knew that other parties would join the EFF in its corner. And the parties that have are MK and ATM and all of those smaller parties. They're all in that kind of space on the far left of that spectrum. And then, certainly on racial nationalism, often joined by Herman, I would think, yes.Alec Hogg: So what's next? That's really the big question. You've had an election where the ANC is now down to just over 30%, yet this is the party that is running the country as though it has a clear majority, which it doesn't have in Parliament. What happens next?Helen Zille: Well, we are going hell for leather to become the biggest party in South Africa. That's the aim now, and that's what we plan to do.Alec Hogg: But could these results not trigger something more revolutionary, an early national election perhaps?Helen Zille: Well, that could happen. It depends on what Cyril Ramaphosa and Fikile Mbalula decide to do about this very disastrous result for the ANC. It depends on what happens at their elective congress at the end of next year. So a lot of things will shape what happens now, but we can only influence what we do.And what we do is to become the biggest party in South Africa for one simple objective, and that is to put South Africa on a path of prosperity and democracy. Now, we would like that, obviously, to be a non-racial path under the rule of law. In fact, we believe that's the only way that South Africa can succeed. And we've been committed to that vision for years and years, since Helen Suzman was our only public representative. So I've been working on that project for many, many years, and we still believe in that project.And it's a wonderful miracle that that project is now on the cusp of becoming the most popular political project in South Africa. You've really got to understand what a miracle that is in its own right, in a context like we have in South Africa, with our history: that a party that espouses inclusion, economic growth, non-racialism, the rule of law, merit-based appointments and constitutionalism is the one that can easily emerge as the biggest in the country. That's an extraordinary achievement. But it's not an achievement of one election cycle. It's an achievement over six decades.Alec Hogg: What do the results of this election mean for 2029?Helen Zille: Well, it puts us in a very powerful position. I know that ActionSA and the ANC could well keep us out of the mayoral seats in the metros, and the ANC with some other parties in others. But I don't see many highly positive prospects for metro governments without the DA in key positions. And if they decide to do that, which is their right, they can do what they like in negotiations.And if ActionSA and the ANC find each other, the way I see things going into the future is that more and more people will understand that the DA's path to a prosperous and democratic country is the right one. It certainly won't cut us off at the knees. It will give us a context and a comparison to make our case even clearer.Alec Hogg: Getting back to Joburg, if things don't work out with ActionSA, would the DA partner with the ANC?Helen Zille: It's not for me to say that. It really isn't for me to say that. We have a negotiating team, and the very last thing that they want is for me to sit on the outside setting conditions or preferences or anything like that. I've learned from when I was leading the DA's negotiating team that everybody outside must keep quiet, and that we don't say what we would prefer. We don't speculate on what the DA's positions are going to be.I can only say what has been said in the public statement, which is that we have a framework of principles that we've put on the table and said those provide the parameters within which we are prepared to negotiate. And that's all I can say at this stage. Obviously, the DA is prepared to talk to everyone. Obviously, we would like to get into government in our major cities, because we genuinely and sincerely believe that that is in the best interest of everybody living in those cities. But if it doesn't turn out that way, we're very good in opposition. We can easily be in opposition, and there'll always be a next round, as we have learned over 60 years.Alec Hogg: Helen, again, a bit broader, because I can see I'm not going to get any joy from you as far as the negotiations are concerned, and correct me if I'm wrong. But going a bit broader, what parts of the country were a pleasant surprise to you as the DA?Helen Zille: The one place I was really thrilled about was George. George is a challenging city to govern. George is an absolutely beautiful city, and it's going to become the next metro, and it is really a wonderful place. And Gayton McKenzie had said they're going to get an overall majority in George. Well, the DA got an overall majority, and that pleased me a great deal.Knysna also pleased me. We've got a path to a stable coalition government there, and we can turn around the corruption and collapse in that great city, the town, as it were. All over the place there were very pleasant surprises. The PA didn't do nearly as well as they claimed they would do.Getting an overall majority in Cape Town was very, very gratifying, because so many analysts were saying that we would be having a coalition coming to Cape Town, which never happened. We still run at least 12 municipalities outright, which is great. And we've got workable coalitions in many, many others. The big question is the metros.Alec Hogg: KZN: the ability to twist Chris Pappas's arm to stay and go for another mayoral term. That clearly played a part?Helen Zille: Well, of course, that was spectacular. I did a lot of twisting of Chris Pappas's arm, as he will tell you, because I think he is spectacular and I think he's a huge asset to the DA. And he pushed it to 60%, which shows it's not about race. You know, that's the wonderful thing. It's not about race, it's about competence. And I think that's what parties get a bit worried about. They saw Chris Pappas squeaking in last time on 42 votes, just 42 votes, governing well and turning that into a spanking majority.Alec Hogg: What about eThekwini? How are we to read the results there?Helen Zille: Well, I think this is the way to read the results. Number one, MK did not do as well as they'd hoped. Number two, we came second to MK in eThekwini. The ANC did worse than we did in eThekwini, which is a fundamental shift in the development. Hanif ran a very good campaign. So it shows you that the vote is deeply divided.They run an executive committee system, not an executive mayoral system, which means that their mayoral committees have to be formed proportionately in any event. So MK will get 40% and we will get just over 20%, and so it will go. So they have a very different system in KwaZulu-Natal. But it shows that we can, and we do, beat other parties that had a much bigger footprint previously.Alec Hogg: So there is hope that one day eThekwini can be turned around. Is it likely to be this government of provincial unity replicated in the city?Helen Zille: It may be. I mean, I can't predict that. It may be. I don't know how many dependencies will be built into the negotiations, which means we don't just deal with each place on its own merits, but we try and get an overall agreement, which is one option. I don't say that it's an option that's going to be followed. I just say, analytically, that would be one option. So I can't predict this.What I am saying is that no one, even a year ago, would have predicted that we could be almost double the size of the ANC in Joburg, and bigger than the ANC in eThekwini, and bigger than the ANC in Ekurhuleni and Tshwane. And for a long time, right up till the end, bigger than the ANC in Mangaung, and much bigger than the ANC in Nelson Mandela Bay. I mean, that is just an extraordinary outcome, and people must never forget that. People say something's impossible, and when it's done they take it for granted and ask you why you didn't do better.Alec Hogg: Nelson Mandela Bay is a good one, and we really need a little bit more insight, because people there have really suffered for a long time. Is there an obvious path to governance there?Helen Zille: There is a path to governance in Nelson Mandela Bay. We got 44%. We just need 6% to be made up by other parties there to take us over the line. And so we do have options there. It's never good to have a coalition if you can possibly help it, but we will certainly take the least bad option there. And Retief did a spectacular job. He's known, he's loved, he's competent and he will be a great mayor.Alec Hogg: Bringing it all together, what does the result mean for the government of national unity, given that the weightings in the country have clearly changed from 2024?Helen Zille: That's an interesting question, Alec. There are some people in the ANC blaming their setback in the 2026 local government election on the fact that the government of national unity exists, and that the two major pillars of it are the ANC and the DA. And some in the ANC are saying that's why the ANC is losing on the ground. That is a false analysis.If that was true, then the EFF and MK would have grown, but they didn't. The protest vote, if it was a protest vote against the GNU, would have gone to the EFF and MK, but that didn't happen. The EFF and MK actually shrank. So it wasn't a protest vote. I think we have to say very clearly that it was a vote to turn around collapsing local government. It had nothing to do with the GNU. It was a vote to fix local government.Alec Hogg: And you've often said to us that all politics is local. So these results are clearly telling us that South Africans are paying more attention. I've heard it described more than once already that our young democracy is maturing. Is that overstating it?Helen Zille: No, it's not overstating it at all. I mean, look at the pluses that have come out of this. Fikile Mbalula gave a speech that says, we can't blame anybody but ourselves, we accept the outcome, we have to do deep introspection. In how many emerging democracies would that happen if a governing party was defeated at the polls? I can promise you, very, very few.Far more transitions to democracy have failed than have succeeded. And they always say the biggest test of whether an emerging democracy is succeeding is whether the liberation party, or the initially dominant party, is prepared to accept a loss at the ballot box. And I have to give it to the ANC. They've passed that one with flying colours.And the President at the ROC last night, that's the Results Operation Centre, made a very generous speech in which he made the point that they accept the verdict of the voters and they believe the election was free and fair. They're not running around everywhere contesting the election and demanding to stay in power. So we must never, ever take that for granted.We must also never take it for granted that we have an IEC that did run a free and fair election. There are hiccups here and there; there always are. People aren't perfect. But the truth is that the IEC was not captured by the ANC in that terrible era of state capture, and they did not rig an election in favour of the ANC, as happened in Zimbabwe, for example. So we must never take that for granted either. That's a wonderful plus point.And then you have the party that is committed to non-racialism, constitutionalism, the rule of law, freedom, fairness, expanding opportunities and merit-based appointments. You have that party emerging, by a short distance, as the second biggest in the country and the biggest in most of the metros.I mean, think of that miracle. Where else has that happened? So I think South Africa is in a much better place than we were even in 1994. And you know, South Africans, when push comes to shove, know how much we have to lose, and know when our backs are against the wall that we choose the pathway of success. Not everyone, but an extraordinarily large number of South Africans are rational, committed, determined and love this country.Alec Hogg: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're a lot more optimistic after this election than you were before it.Helen Zille: Well, I always get optimistic when we pass such big hurdles and such big tests. I mean, just think of the transition to democracy in many countries to the north of us. They haven't gone like ours has.And as long as we can keep independent institutions like the IEC, like the courts... Although some of the Constitutional Court judgments recently have been incomprehensible to me, but I haven't read those judgments. I haven't seen the legal basis for them. But just on the face of it, I can't understand why the ANC is allowed to miss deadlines when no one else is. But I will look at the legal arguments and see on what basis the ANC won that case.But, you know, as long as we keep independent institutions, and as long as political parties are allowed to state their case freely and fairly, and as long as voters remain committed to looking at the different offers and making a rational choice, we're only going upwards.Alec Hogg: Has the penny dropped, though, with the ANC that they do not rule the country by divine right anymore? It is something that is deeply embedded in the party's psyche. Has it changed? And I say this because I spoke with Glynnis Breytenbach last week, your chief whip, and she said she looks forward to seeing how this lands with members of the ANC, because she says they're really struggling to come to terms with an understanding that this country has changed.Helen Zille: Yes. I mean, it's obviously very difficult for a party that at one point got over 70% of the vote under Thabo Mbeki. They assumed that the demographic dividend would always be the wind beneath their wings, and the liberation dividend would just put that on jet fuel. And suddenly that is no longer the case. People are not voting in demographic blocs anymore.The DA's voters are a third black, a third brown, a third white. We can't get 35% in an 83% black city and be a white party. So all of those things are changing fundamentally, and it's obviously going to take the ANC a bit of a while to adjust to that.Certainly after the result of the 2024 election, they thought the voters had made some big mistake somewhere and it was only a temporary setback, and they would rally. This election is making them question that assumption. But you must just listen to what they're saying. Their words are saying: we can't blame anyone but ourselves, we have to introspect about this, this is the voters' verdict on the way we governed. Where do you find many political parties saying that?Alec Hogg: Does that make them a better partner, or a potential partner?Helen Zille: Well, I can't say that, because I could be seen to be trying to influence the negotiations, which I can't and won't. But what I will tell you is that South Africans should feel very hopeful about the country when the party that has dominated the electoral landscape for more than three decades says that about this slide.Alec Hogg: Helen Zille, as always, it's a privilege talking with you. We look forward to hearing more when the negotiating team has knocked out an agreement. And well, I'm leaving this conversation feeling more uplifted, but then I tend to do that when we chat.Helen Zille is the mayoral candidate for Johannesburg, former premier of the Western Cape and former mayor of Cape Town, and during that period she was named the best mayor in the world. Who knows? Maybe she'll win that again for Johannesburg. And I'm Alec Hogg with your BizNews Edge.Helen Zille: Thanks very much, Alec.