BNC#6: Maimane Q&A – Returning to parliament, inspiration from Macron, his vision for SA’s future and more

Mmusi Maimane, the leader of Build One South Africa (BOSA), discussed his political inspiration and strategy at the BizNews Conference BNC#6 in Hermanus. Drawing parallels with Macron’s centrist approach, Maimane emphasised pragmatic solutions over ideological divides. He highlighted BOSA’s focus on citizen empowerment, transparency in candidate selection, and grassroots engagement bolstered by a robust online presence. Addressing challenges such as voter intimidation and the need for job creation, he outlined a vision for a post-ANC South Africa, appealing to dignity and shared prosperity. With a strategic organization of over 40,000 activists, Maimane aims to shift the political landscape towards a centrist, values-driven governance model.

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Summary of the Question and Answer session with BOSA Leader Mmusi Maimane at BNC#6 in Hermanus

In a candid and insightful conversation, Mmusi Maimane, the leader of the BOSA movement, articulated a vision for transforming South Africa’s political landscape. Drawing parallels to Macron’s successful campaign in France, Maimane underscored the importance of fostering hope and pragmatism over ideological divides. BOSA’s approach, inspired by Macron’s community engagement, aims to transcend traditional party lines, focusing on citizen empowerment and practical solutions to real-world problems.

Maimane emphasised the need to break away from negativity and embrace a centrist approach, citing statistics that show a growing preference for pragmatic solutions among citizens. He stressed the importance of involving individuals with diverse skills and backgrounds in politics, moving away from the stale and entrenched political establishment.

Central to BOSA’s strategy is its grassroots activism, with over 40,000 activists mobilised across the country. Leveraging social media platforms and community engagement, BOSA seeks to reach a broad spectrum of South Africans, offering a message of hope and practical change.

Addressing concerns about voter intimidation and dependency on government grants, Maimane highlighted the importance of job creation and economic empowerment. BOSA’s manifesto includes proposals for a basic income grant and focuses on building a prosperous future for all citizens, regardless of their background.

Maimane also reflected on his experiences working with opposition leaders in other African countries, emphasizing the importance of democracy and regional stability. He acknowledged the challenges of shifting entrenched political dynamics but remains optimistic about BOSA’s potential to effect change.

Looking ahead to the upcoming elections, Maimane sets ambitious targets for BOSA, aiming to secure over 1.2 million votes and a seat in Parliament. He emphasised the importance of winning the argument for change and engaging voters beyond traditional party lines.

In conclusion, Maimane’s BOSA movement presents a compelling alternative to South Africa’s political status quo, offering a vision of pragmatic leadership, citizen empowerment, and inclusive governance.

Edited Transcript of the Question and Answer session with Mmusi Maimane at BNC#6 in Hermanus ___STEADY_PAYWALL___

Alec Hogg [00:00:07] Some of the stuff you were saying that, again, with the funding from other parts of the world, sounded a little bit like Macron. When Macron had that surprise victory in France, he pulled people in from the community. He was neither left nor right, but he was a a message of hope. Is this what or what? But without saying you following Macron’s model. But where is your inspiration for Bosa coming from? 

Mmusi Maimane [00:00:37] Yeah, we are following some of what Macron taught. Because I think, unlike you, I don’t know. I’m sick and tired of the negativity that happens. And I get it when the lights are off and there’s no water, we have reason to be negative. But what the stats shows that if there were a thousand members of Parliament, centrists are winning. Starting to tell me that actually citizens are looking for pragmatic solutions rather than ideologically entrenched ideals. Citizens actually want someone who can fix the lights and do all of that. That’s the first. The second is actually politics, as Obama said, is too important to be left up to politicians. So we have to go ask people with skills. My problem is this, is that when I look at the lists that have been put up that were signed on on Friday, all I see in there is stale bread. People who were there in 2019, all of us, like I mean, even the president, he now claims complete amnesia about state capture. What we need is citizens in communities who are working day in, day out, coming together, bound by shared values, shared ideals, a vision that they can say they can come together. And I’m finding great success in that. Not because, you know, we tried it to great difficulty in 2021. So we learned some lessons.

[00:02:01]Now coming forward, I’m confident that I see, Ayanda is here. I see people like Nobunaga. I see so many of them who are here who previously were not in Parliament. They were not in politics, but they were able to put up their hands and say, I want to serve my country and I don’t need to be a politician. I just need to know who I represent and against what values I do it. [20.1s] So we’re finding one of the distinctions of Bosa is that, as people would say, published lists, published whatever, I published our list last year already because we went and found the candidates and said, here the candidates, if there are criminals amongst them, we will remove them immediately without having to submit them to the IEC. So to me, we’ve got to give power back to the people, and that’s a practical way of doing it. 

Alec Hogg [00:02:46] What about those 2 million that you spoke about, those 2 million votes that don’t seem to be registering anywhere? Again, I’m going to use an international example. When Obama came to power, he used innovation, a lot of it in social media, a lot of it in ways that had not been applied in the American system. Your social media footprint is huge. For those who don’t know, Mmusi got more than 2 million followers on Twitter. 300,000 on Facebook. The interview that we did the other day with Ayanda got more than 100,000 people viewing it for ten minutes, a view. That’s not Tik-Tok 30s. That’s proper interest. Can you give us some insight into how this is maybe influencing and shaping your perspectives of where Bosa might be getting itself in the election? 

Mmusi Maimane [00:03:47] I mean our online game, is also heavily supported by a grassroots effect. And I’ll come back to the online but the grassroots bit. [00:03:56]So on every given day we’ve got over a thousand Bosa champions going to communities, engaging people, talking to them. On every given day, we’ve almost got activists who are going or I mean, I spend more time away from home than I do at home. So I think my kids have cause for concern. Every time I come home, they’re like, who’s that man coming in? You know? [22.3s] But along with all of those tools, we’ve migrated because it has to support by the online bit. And so yes, I’m fortunate enough to have built a very strong support on social media and we’re clear, that that doesn’t always translate into votes, but we work to engage and contentize people about our message, and what’s great on social media, because sometimes Twitter or X can be a bit like a shebeen, anyone says whatever they feel like saying. I’ve just got a research piece that indicated that our message is not contested for and that it’s cinched. You get a lot of people on social media who are race mongering, dividing on that space, and it increases likes. We are on a free pathway where we’re not xenophobic, homophobic. We’re simply sitting in that space with South Africans engaging us. We’ve spent a lot of time on that. We are also deploying other tools. We’ve launched a crowdfunding initiative on there. We’re busy with WhatsApp channels that allow for people to be able to talk continuously, and we’ll be deploying new tools in the next while. That will ensure that even people can engage with our manifesto on WhatsApp to talk about it. I think the age old way of running a political party by saying, you want answers and you want this, is archaic, it’s Marxist, and it speaks to an old world. We need new, fresh political organisation going forward, and that’s part of what we do. 

Alec Hogg [00:05:53] And are the youngsters going to come out and vote? 

Mmusi Maimane [00:05:57] Young people sadly are under registered, as a percentage of the broader population. So my audience sits between 24 to 39, those guys. The new registration targets that have come through, so an additional – I think the IEC registered at just over a million new voters. We’re trying to understand what that new voter looks like. But again, if I come back to the 2 million game changer conversation, is that a million of them are dissatisfied with the ANC. These are South Africans that in any poll would make the case to say, I’ll stay at home, one vote, that kind of thing. So we’ve got to turn those out. And then secondly, amongst the new voter population and the younger ones, and as I said, all the way to 32 to 43, so kind of my age spectrum, are very keen to come out and say, how do I find something new and new leaders. So yeah, as a proportion, I think young people will turn out if they’re inspired to realise that their vote will matter. And I don’t want to assume, as most polls say, that the ANC under that premise will be below 50. We’ve still got to go out and earn it. That’s why even in earning signatures to register, we went out and engaged people. We will be increasing that to make sure we get it close to a million, so that more and more people are directly engaged with our message. 

Alec Hogg [00:07:21] We’re talking about those signatures. How many of you now got on the on the list? I think plus you publicised it was 160,000. 

Mmusi Maimane [00:07:29] So we’re growing. I mean, as I say, our teams will be back. We had to give them a break after we have to submit that last week at the IEC. Now they’ll be back on. And we want to try and get that, at least certainly in the next number of weeks, we’ll be over 200,000. And then we want, to ramping up to the eight weeks towards the elections, try and ramp that number much higher than that. 

Alec Hogg [00:07:54] So that means you’re going back to Parliament. 

Mmusi Maimane [00:07:58] That means more people who share Mmusi’s values are going back to Parliament. 

Alec Hogg [00:08:03] Are you? 

Mmusi Maimane [00:08:05] I myself will be going back to Parliament. And I don’t just want to go back alone, I think we need more people in Parliament. So in real numbers, if you get over 1.2 million votes, you’ve got 10% of the seats in Parliament, which are over 40 people, and any proportional seats you might accrue after that. So I want to send more people, but we also want to send people to legislatures, and to various places, because when it’s said and done, this election will need some form of anchor tenant, someone who sits in the middle, who’s able to go, If parties within the MPC and many others need to get a majority over 50%, we can be able to work with them to ensure that we build a government of centrists with that ten point plan I just tabled earlier, so that we know how to chart our way for prosperity. 

Alec Hogg [00:09:04] Tell us about your view on the MPC. 

Mmusi Maimane [00:09:08] I think that initiative by the DA is important on that score. I’ve travelled with many of the leaders who are in the MPC. We took a view that says we can’t be in the MPC because there are voters who naturally, I’m going to leap over and just vote for the MPC. And even if you just take all the numbers of the parties within the MPC, they still don’t cross the 50 plus 1% mark. So when I said to you earlier, my race is against someone like Julius Malema, because Julius represents a set of values as I represent a set of values. So we have to beat those values, because as we’ve learnt in democracies all over the world, you don’t have to be the majority party or the biggest parties to have influence on the values of the big parties. In Germany, Angela Merkel’s party had to be dragged by the alternative for Deutschland of those values because it kept pulling them. And here was a relatively, new party compared to the SDU, but they were pulling them in a direction. And if the same happens in South Africa, you can appreciate that maybe before the ANC when talking about land, but as the EFF look like they’re growing into their support now, suddenly there’s a bigger conversation in that space. I don’t want us to lose the values, centrist, market friendly economy, all of those where we advocate from, we can’t lose those. So if I was in the MPC, the message is muted in our view. We have to be independent of that, so that voters who are looking for that centrist ground can find a home so that we can be able to deliver the 50 plus one balance of power. 

Alec Hogg [00:10:55] I know you’re a student of politics, and you would have no doubt studied the [00:11:01]van Zyl Slabbert story [0.4s] quite well. Like you, he was the leader of the opposition. Like you, he left Parliament. Unlike you, he didn’t go back. We see the request, and if you might’ve, are there any parallels there? 

Mmusi Maimane [00:11:15] Absolutely. Because, even drawing on the electoral reform conversation, which so loosely was called the van Zyl Slabbert report, he understood the fact that the sustainability of democracy in this country could only work if you really bring democracy back to the people. You know, Alec, we can sit in this room. And we can live in Hermanus. And we can enjoy the securities that come with a neighbourhood such as this one. [00:11:46]But there is another South Africa. And it’s in that South Africa that we need to be able to intervene, invest in infrastructure, build a township economy so that it can prosper. Having grown up in both worlds, I know that until such a time, and I want to say this to everybody here. Until such a time that we can elect public leaders who can represent a multiplicity of races and constituencies, then we will know true freedom. [35.7s] We will not know that until we tend to think to ourselves, actually, without drawing the constituencies properly, we must then say only a coloured leader can represent coloured people. Only a Zulu person can represent Zulu people. Only an Afrikaans person can represent Afrikaans people. We keep that, then we’ve lost democracy. But when we can be able to come back to constituencies, so that if you are the constituency leader of Hermanus, you represent the wealthy and the poor, you are able to fight on both those issues and the electoral bill makes that possible. Then I will know that the future of democracy in South Africa is secure. But otherwise, if I just go back to Parliament to keep status quo, I think I might join van Zyl Slabbert, and not go back. 

Alec Hogg [00:13:07] You know, you and Michael Louis have worked very hard on on that, and getting that through. But I suppose one of the big mysteries in South Africa is you are in virtually every poll, the second most popular politician in the country behind Cyril Ramaphosa, oppose any poll that will come out. Ramaphosa won, Maimane too, even though Maimane hasn’t been in Parliament for five years. Can you take that popularity and translate it into actual votes in the next election? And if so, how? 

Mmusi Maimane [00:13:41] The exercise we’re engaged with now is South Africans don’t universally yet know Build One South Africa. South Africans know me. And I still bump into some South Africans who still say, hey, where’s your party? What’s going on? The hard work we’ve got to do is merge those two things, as a first. The second thing that when you ask the question, how does that take that popularity and translate it? It certainly allows us into many households. [00:14:17]I’m privileged to be able to speak eight languages. I come as a descendant of a mixed family. My mother’s Xhosa, my father’s Tswane. Which means that it’s not just geographic popularity, it’s not just Gautengers. It allows me to enter the homes of a diversity of South Africans. [36.8s] That’s why to your hundreds or over 140,000 signatures. They don’t just come from one area. That popularity means we are we are able to contest in Mpumalanga. We are contesting nationally in every province because that acceptance is there. So to translate that is really about spending as much time going into those communities, being able to focus on community radio and speaking to people. But using that favorability that we enjoy with so many South Africans, to not only to be able to invite them to vote for Bosa, we put up posters and all of that and fund an election campaign, so that when they come out, they recognise that this is a South African that we share common values with. And I’ve been able to attract South Africans who share incredible diversity. So what’s beautiful is that I saw its first instant, in the calibre of candidates that are standing. They are diverse. I look at our lists. There are black people, there are white people, there are coloured people, they’re Indian people, because that translates ability to as many different communities, and also each of those candidates have then got the freedom to go into their constituencies and talk to someone, to talk to South Africans about someone South Africans have met before. And that helps. 

Alec Hogg [00:16:21] So where are you seeing Bosa’s numbers on May the 29th, 80 days time. 

Mmusi Maimane [00:16:30] We want to add a minimum, and try and target just over – it’s a 2 million votes election. We’re kicking off. We want to get over 1.2 million because that will give us a seat in the room. Having managed coalitions, I know some ways what it takes. I know some of the difficulties that happen, and I’m privileged to have been able to build a relationship with the leaders that I get. Despite even the DA, despite history, despite all of that, I still speak to their leadership, speak to people. I still speak to, leaders across even the multi-party charter. I was grateful, even when we got onto the ballot. I got calls from leaders in the multi-party charter to say, we’re so grateful you are in. So, wanting to take those 1.2 million votes so that we are in the room to negotiate and build strongly from there. But that, for us is where we want to start and push that number as far as we can. 

Alec Hogg [00:17:29] So that’s going to be the that’s going to be the story. It’s going to be how many chips you have on the table and the discussions that go from there. Now when we look at things like the Brenthurst research that they brought out this week, yesterday, you don’t feature at all. 

Mmusi Maimane [00:17:49] I read through that report, and it’s an interesting one, right, because there are a couple of things. One, that puts us at over 5% in Gauteng, in the same report, which is a significant part, right? Secondly, we know from where we sit what it takes to reach communities that maybe in their reporting, when you ask the question, still don’t always know, would rather say don’t know and all of that. So we’re comfortable that in the undecided vote we are the choice that sits there thirdly, I think people may not know Bosa, but they know Mmusi Maimane. So I’d be interested to understand what was the framing of the question, because of the question gives you a fixed multiple choice that says, who are you going to vote for, ANC, DA, EFF, this or that? Of course, once that, and I’ve done polling, once you put that ballot before people, those are the choices that are before them. The hard yards that we’ve got to do is in understanding what went into the questioning, is to also then ask further, where does Bosa sit, where does all of that? And I’m working not with the Brenthurst research. We’re working with a number of other polling companies, and certainly the reports that we’re getting are different. Like for example, I’m uncertain when I look at that printers report that suddenly Zuma or the MK party has gone to 13% higher than the EFF, in the climate that it’s like, it seems way overbaked and it doesn’t ring credible to me. So I’m worried about the narrative that it puts on the table. I’m comfortable enough that if we do the hard yards, my own favourability, meeting people, the candidates that we’ve got, we should be able to achieve the electoral outcomes we’ve just spoken about. 

Alec Hogg [00:19:34] It’s your turn. 

BizNews Commuity Member [00:19:43] Mmusi,well done and I wish you all the best. I have a question for you. Through the Bosa champions that you have out there for social media, and all the mechanisms that you have at hand to promote yourself for your party. I think one of the biggest challenges you have, and that’s my question, the receivers of grants. We’re talking about probably about 8 million people in South Africa that feel maybe intimidated. 

Alec Hogg [00:20:19] I really don’t want to lose you as a friend. What’s your question, 15 seconds? 

BizNews Commuity Member [00:20:23] How are you going to convince them that given as this grant and feel that they’re obliged to follow the ANC, how are you going to change that? 

Alec Hogg [00:20:34] Thank you. Good question. 

Mmusi Maimane [00:20:35] It is a good question. But I think also we must attend to the psychographic nature of those voters. Voters, even on grants prefer jobs ahead of grants. Convincing them is about making sure that people understand. And one of the policy position is to talk about a basic income grant that is unconditional to whether you work or not. Because the fear for most people is that they know once they start working, they cross over the threshold of being able to be a recipient of whatever support. When I’ve been in communities and asked people which would you rather have, they want a job. No mother wants the child to be a pensioner at 18. Just waiting for a child grant to stay at home. No one wants that. In fact, people even don’t want to live in these RDP homes. There’s another way. Because they say, I’m not a snake, that I should live in a hole that I didn’t build for myself. People want to be empowered. So yes, we’ve got to work harder at communicating the jobs message. That’s why our election manifesto anchors itself in a job in every home, and people are desperate for that, so long as they can see that actually it’s possible for them to work and for their kids to work.

So that’s the message, if you like, that we’ve got to get there. Why it was hard to get some of the signatures, if you’re willing to do it legally, is because that fear does exist. When you say to someone, give me your ID number and your signature. They think you will take those ID numbers and give them to the ruling party so that they know who supported a different party or not. So we’ve got to be clear. Voter education, your vote is your secret. You are not going to have anyone take away your grant. And that’s why I was so bitter, I still remain, when people were like, you shouldn’t be governing in Johannesburg. Because it was important for people to see in 2016 that governing in Jo’burg, outside of Cape Town, at the time when I was leader of the DA, needed to help voters know that actually, after a new government comes into play, the sun doesn’t stop shining, your grants don’t disappear. And actually, life does get better. So let’s not allow the government to spew out lies about grants disappearing, and focus on an economic plan. Because actually, when I speak to South Africans, regardless of where they are, they want a pathway to prosperity. And most people know that that’s through a job. 

Alec Hogg [00:23:16] Tell us about H.H. Hichilema, and how he inspires you. 

Mmusi Maimane [00:23:21] My very, good friend H.H. 

Alec Hogg [00:23:25] Let me tell the people here, they might not even know who he is. 

Mmusi Maimane [00:23:28] I think it was in 2016. When we set up a partnership of opposition leaders in the SADC region, and I had leaders from Zambia, Zimbabwe, all the southern countries, opposition leaders that we would work with to support. So in about 2016, 2017, I get this phone call to say the leader of the opposition in Zimbabwe, in Zambia has been illegally detained. I flew on a plane with, funnily enough, Geordin Hill Lewis, who’s the mayor of Cape Town, and another guy who we off we went to Zambia. And when we got to Zambia, of course, we got arrested at the airport and we were told we could not come into the country. I was kicked out, I was deported, they took all my technology. I remember to hand over my iPad, all of those things. And then we then raised the issue. It became like a media storm and then I wanted to fight for democracy in SADC region.

I organised for H.H. to fly all the way to South Africa. I was in Parliament. I looked at Jacob Zuma, and said, tell that man sitting in the gallery why you are supporting Edgar Lungu in Zambia at the time. And so there was nothing more beautiful to know when a leader of the opposition that fought so doggedly and continued, even despite prison, all the support, it was so nice when we got invited to his inauguration. And at the same airport when we landed, I saw the same army generals coming to the plane. I thought they were going to arrest me, but I tell you, you get a different feeling when you walk across the red carpet going, I’m off to the inauguration, y’all. So it was really great. So he’s been a genuine inspiration, but it’s not the only one. We’ve worked with Lazarus Chakwera in Malawi, so he’s had a difficult turn of it in government. But, he’s been someone we worked with when he was here, with [incoherent]. I’m working with Nelson Chamisa in Zimbabwe. I’m coordinating the work with Umbrella for Change in Botswana with the being the BP party, there that’s led by Dr. Dumelang Saleshando, who I’m almost certain will become the next president if the elections work well there. So I’m interested in democracy in the region, because we can’t deal with immigration without fixing the fact that we’ve allowed Emmerson Mnangagwa to wreck Zimbabwe, and then we moan when Zimbabweans are coming into South Africa and make it a xenophobic issue, fix democracy there. 

Alec Hogg [00:26:06] What inspired me when I first heard that story was how impossible it was for H.H. to become president of Zambia. And yet it’s happened. And, you know, today we are in a very different situation to when I first heard that story where it looked impossible to happen in South Africa.  And here we are. 

BizNews Commuity Member [00:26:27] Sorry. I’ll try and make it quick. First of all, thank us very much for your inspiring speech. I just wanted to give us the size and numbers of the organisation in your party. I think you.

BizNews Commuity Member [00:26:38] Mentioned something like 2000 people going out to sell your policies on voting day. What kind of organisation do you have to get people to vote? 

Mmusi Maimane [00:26:50] So, so there are in the country 24,000 voting stations, right? We did this work quite early on in the year. I know where each province numbers are allocated and how you cut and dice that 1.2 million, because you know Gauteng is the biggest, so you deploy the majority of your resources there. You look at what happens in KZN. So in real numbers. 

Alec Hogg [00:27:28] Sorry, sir. Would you just like to answer, please? Okay. He wants to know the size of your organisation. 

Mmusi Maimane [00:27:33] The size of the organisation, in many ways we will have, we already had before the signatures debacle, over 40,000 activists that were sitting on our database, for them to be able to be deployed into these voting stations. And they add to the numbers of people that are going through. Does that help? 

BizNews Commuity Member [00:27:54] Mister Maimane

Mmusi Maimane [00:27:55] Yes. 

BizNews Commuity Member [00:27:55] I echo his gratefulness for the inspiring address. In 1994, the ANC won the election with a 62%. If you tally the Brenthurst report poll now, it also aggregates to about 62%, between MK, the EFF and the ANC. Therefore, it would appear that in 30 years, none of the leaders on the capitalistic side has been able to tilt the scale even marginally between the idealistic divide. Why do you think that is? And whatever the answer is to that question, is that not the place to start to actually shift the current gridlock? 

Mmusi Maimane [00:28:32] So it is. It does present the challenge that we face. And I’ve spoken at length about the fact that that grouping of parties represents something. But I think we mustn’t lose track about the fact that actually South Africa, we did see some change in 2016 at the metros. In fact, when I was leader of the DA at the time, the majority of local government budget was administered under a DA led coalition. The error that we make is to simply reduce the election. And I feel sometimes we make this mistake to just simply say bash down teh ANC enough times, until you feel like the tree falls down, if you keep chopping.

I actually think the tactic must be, and this is something that I’m working hard on. Tell the story of what happens after the ANC, because there are ANC voters that are looking for a new home. Then the debate stops becoming capitalist, socialist, whatever. The debate becomes what is the next chapter in South Africa, post liberation. You do not win an election until you start to win arguments. And at this point in time, when in 2016 it was easy to say you can pick corruption at local government or we can bring about a change, and I can even remember the regular change that brings jobs, all of those things. We did that work in 2019. I think citizens are asking the question to mitigate against the cynical view.

What is my tomorrow like after the ANC? Well, I’ll tell you a story of my parents. Maybe because they were staunch ANC supporters. And I didn’t take it for granted that they were going to vote for me because I’m their son. They had to grapple with the fact that if you run a campaign that tells them that the ANC is a fraud, it’s like telling people that the people who have liberated you and your parents are frauds. It’s a bit like if my parents were alcoholics and you came and stood outside the door and said, how dare your parents are just drunkards? Even in the midst of that, I feel an obligation to defend my parents. Only I am allowed to say they are drunkards, not you. And I think South Africans tend to treat voters who vote for the ANC, and I hear this for many parties, as those voters are stupid for making those choices. They are not stupid. They remember a time, not only during apartheid but after apartheid, where they actually saw electrification, where there were more houses being built than checks erected.

These are not stupid voters. They know that actually previously they had no income, now they have some income. So we can’t arrive here with a basic story that just says the ANC is frot, and that’s the end of that. We need to help them see their future outside of that. And yes, it does speak into the issue of race, because if your race has been stripped away from you and you feel undignified, believe you me, when someone emits the emotion that says that your race cannot be considered and that actually your history doesn’t matter, it can feel like they want to strip away your dignity. And therefore, in that case, you don’t say, I’m defending corruption. You say I’m defending my dignity from someone who will take away my dignity. So we’ve got to ensure, so when I talk about a shift from poverty to prosperity, it is a dignity question. And we must ensure that when we tell a story, post the ANC, it must be one that ANC voters like my parents can see themselves into and never feel a sense of shame. And I don’t think that story was well told. 

Alec Hogg [00:33:08] Mmusi Maimane, thank you. 

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