LONDON ā Barry van Zyl, who for 19 years has been the drummer for South Africa’s most successful musical export Johnny Clegg, is not your typical musician. An extremely well read, deeply thoughtful brainiac, he is in the final stages of a Henley MBA, adding to impressive academic credentials within the music business. I caught up with him in London this week after Clegg’s last two appearances in the city as part of a Final Tour. Clegg’s pancreatic cancer is in remission, providing him the opportunity to say farewell to his fans around the world. This is a riveting interview, highlighted by Van Zyl’s insights into how to overcome creative blockages and his devotion to lifelong learning. Inspirational on so many fronts. – Alec Hogg
Iām with Barry van Zyl and youāve had a very interesting weekend with the Johnny Clegg band. How long have you been performing with him?
Yes indeed. Weāve just done 2 shows in London, as you know, and Iāve been with the band for 19 years so, I started in 1999. My first gig was in Frankfurt at a basketball arena. It was kind of a last-minute thing. I had 2 days to rehearse the whole repertoire. We flew to Frankfurt. We were supposed to have a rehearsal the afternoon we arrived but the sound company was late so we ended up having no rehearsal. Going up on stage and kind of cold. I think there were 15 thousand people and just before I went on stage the manager said to me, āPlease donāt mess it up because itās getting recorded live for German TV.ā
No pressure.
No, no pressure at all and then as I was going on stage, on a stool in the wings was Madiba so, I couldnāt believe my eyes. I thought I was seeing things. It turned out that he was in Germany to give a keynote address at a dinner and heād come to see our show before he went to dinner, he delayed his dinner, and he asked us to play Asimbonanga, which is about him and his favourite song. Normally we end with that, thatās our encore. For that night, we started with it so, the very first shot you see on TV you see me, like a rabbit in the headlights, taking my last piece of music and putting it in the front in a panic. For some reason, they filmed me doing that. I still donāt know why.
Then we played Asimbonanga then Madiba came on and he made that beautiful speech that went viral on YouTube after he died about music being the thing kept him centred. Music and dance makes him at peace with the world. He did that and then he said, āCan you play it again?ā So, we played the encore twice before we started the show. It was amazing.
How do you prepare for something like that? Did you know all of Johnny Cleggās music? Had you drummed to it before in practice?
No, to be honest, I didnāt know the music. I didnāt own any of his CDs or anything. I was a fan I just didnāt own any of his stuff so, what happened was the music director of the band called me. He sent me a tape of a live show and heād written all the music out. I then listened to the tapes, looked at the music and thatās a pre-production way of getting through a rehearsal in a short amount of time. Then I had 2 days to run it. There were 22 songs and none of them are simple forms. Theyāve all got intricate arrangements so, we then ran the forms for 2 days and then jumped on the plane.
What happens now, 19 years later, is it very easy for you or do you practice at all with him?
Yes, we do. Weāll rehearse for a week before we go on tour so, before this current and last tour, itās called the āFinal Journey Tour.ā We rehearsed for a week in Johannesburg about 2 months ago, just before the first show in CT. What will happen is weāll play the old catalogue but weāll sort of rejig some of the arrangements to make them more interesting or to make them more fun. For this tour, weāve got the Soweto Gospel Choir onboard, weāve got Sipho Mchunu coming on. Jesse comes on, Johnnyās son, so we had to rehearse all their parts, even though itās music we know. Then thereās normally one or two new songs as well, itās kind of a workshop process. Itās editing and streamlining old catalogue and then maybe doing one or two new pieces. Thatās normally the process.
Barry, it is called the āFinal Tourā itās well-known that Johnny Clegg has got cancer but itās in remission. Is this the reason why the tour has gone ahead at this point?
Yes, I think Johnny decided to just bookmark his career with some mega shows and really make a big powerful statement to end off his career and then retire. I have no doubt that he will still do occasional shows. Probably not public shows but Iām sure heāll do shows going into 2018, but in terms of the big productions, after this tour, I donāt believe heāll play anymore.
What happens, from a music perspective, for an artist like yourself? Youāve been with him for 19 years. You have played though with other artists would you now find someone else to play with?
Yes, possibly. Iāve got associations and obviously, a large network of singer, songwriters, band, and producers around the world. I think in 2018 I might pursue that angle of looking for touring work with other artists. That is something that appeals to me but Iām feeling like Iāll probably start cutting down on my performing work and Iāll probably get into the music business from another angle more than I have been.
Thatās what makes you unusual. Have you completed your MBA now? Last time we spoke you were acing it, I remember, getting very good marks for it. Is it through?
I finished all the modules. The Henley MBA is modular so Iāve just finished my last one, which was leadership and change, and Iām now steering down the 6-month dissertation, which Iāll hopefully submit before Christmas.
It seems to be the fashion nowadays in SA, a very good fashion, for people to educate themselves more. Lifelong learning, weāve seen some politicians, very famous ones getting degrees recently and being very proud of it. Is that something that drove you towards it or where did the spark come from to better your education?
I think you nailed it on the head with lifelong learning. Iām a big fan of lifelong learning. My learning has just taken an adjacent twist because all my learning was very much music business focussed and when I found out about the toolkit of skills you could get from a MBA program it wasnāt what I expected, to be honest. For me the image I had of a MBA was a very stuffy, elitist qualification to rise in the ranks of the corporate world, which I suppose it still is used for. But I didnāt realise it was also a very powerful toolkit for self-development or putting ideas into practice successfully so, that excited me. When I cottoned on the fact that this toolkit would enable me to have the ideas, of which I have many, Iāve got too many for one lifetime. If I could make some of my ideas into successes with a bit more strategy than just shooting pellets into the sky and hoping one falls in the right place, which has been my strategy in the past, then it was very well worth doing and thatās what triggered me to do it. So, to your point of lifelong learning, yes, Iām a fan of that theory and Iām going to carry on. The MBA is definitely not the end of the road. Iām just going to roll one into the next now.
You would have thought through, with your very deep roots in music and the profile that you have in the international music community that thereād be a glittering path for you there into the future, if you decided to pursue that.
Yes, definitely. This is a conscious repositioning on my part. Iām not tired of the music industry and my appetite is probably keener for music than it has been for the last 10 years and Iām enjoying playing in the shows and playing drums more than ever. I think a lot of that excitement is driven by the fact that non-music business dimensions are exciting me more than music right now.
What about the music industry itself? Weāve seen Apple music, thereās Spotify thatās quite big there. Other players coming into that fold. In the 19 years that youāve been with Johnny Clegg alone, let alone the time before that, you must have seen huge developments and huge changes when you now look at it, as a MBA ā looking back at that industry.
Yes, definitely. Just the fact that Iāve been through ownership of music via CDs and then MP3 downloads to non-ownership. The model right now is streaming and thatās where the market is going. The business model has changed seismically. When we started a band would travel or tour to promote a product or a CD. Now, a band tour as their primary revenue source and the CDs are just a value-add that theyāll sell at gigs. The age of the recording artist has ended. Itās gone back to performance, which I think is a very good thing. It used to be that bands would tour and they would break even or even tour at a loss in order to promote the recorded product. Now, the margins are from the touring and the CD sales are a little bit of cream in the budget that you sell at shows. People donāt go to CD stores anymore because they donāt exist, so Iāve seen a radical shift and a radical change. Iām positive about the music though. Thereās some dents that have to be addressed because the revenue stream, well, thereās more money being generated by music now than in the last 15 years.
I think I was reading last week that the Universal Group boasted something like $900m in revenue in the first quarter of this year and that was up something like 26% on last year. That was largely driven by streaming. The amount of money that people are prepared to spend in America, which is the biggest market, is going upwards. The music business is not in trouble, which people seem to, for some reason, think. The trouble is that the revenue that is coming in is not getting distributed to the owners of the IP so, the songwriters are getting less money but thereās more money being generated and that model has to be addressed. I think thereās high-level talks going on to try and address this but the royalty collection network or net is based on an old model and they canāt capture revenue from streaming yet and theyāre no agile enough to shift. When that shifts I think music and music content producers are going to be in a sweet spot.
So, the whole creative economy is now starting, well it hasnāt yet been given the due that it deserves but itās coming?
I believe so, yes.
Just getting back to the fact that money is made out of events. Whatās the biggest event that youāve played too?
You mean the biggest audience. I believe the biggest was we did the opening of the Montreal Jazz. Weāve done the Montreal Jazz Festival a bunch of times but one year we did the opening ceremony and that was 150 000 people in the centre of Montreal and that was pretty mega. Although you canātā¦ Anything above 20.000 you canāt actually see. I saw the enormity of it from helicopter shots afterwards on TV and it was just enormous.
And nerves?
No.
Do you get into some kind of a zone when youāre playing?
I get into a flow and into a zone and I definitely channel the nervous energy in the right direction. When we started the interview and I was talking about the Madiba gig, there I was nervous but I managed to channel my nerves into the right places. Instead of getting frazzled I actually focussed more. My belief is that itās the rule of the harder your work, the luckier you get or the 10.000 hours. So, if youāve got that bed to rest on then you can channel the nervous energy in the right place because you have the confidence that you can do the job. Whereas, if youāre not prepared and youāre nervous then itās game over.
And thatās applicable throughout life, isnāt it?
In any sector, yes.
How big is the band internationally? People in SA knows that Johnny Clegg is a mega star but how big internationally?
Johnnyās biggest market is in France by a mile. Thatās his number one market and thatās where he did most of his business. In the early 90ās with a band called Savuka. That was his big footprint internationally. That translated into French-Canada, and then French-Canada spread into America. Heās a niche artist in America but a niche artist ā heās still big enough to do a 40 ā 50 show tour. In France, he was very much a very mainstream artist. Heās now, I guess, more of a legacy artist there but heās a household name. The biggest markets are France, Canada, the USA, Germany, Switzerland and then the expat communities in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. That, I would say, would be his global demographic.
From your perspective other artists that you have played with?
Weāve interacted with a bunch of amazing artists over the years from being in festivals and meeting various people. Weāve done wonderful things. We did a festival in Norway a few years back, in Tromso. Peter Gabriel was there and he came and sang Asimbonanga with us and he didnāt bring his band so, we backed him which was amazing. That was just fantastic. Just a little note on the side there, is that Iām a huge Led Zeppelin fan and Robert Plantās band was playing just after us and he was hanging out backstage the whole time so, I got to shake his hand, have a chat, and have a picture taken. Iām probably his biggest fan so, that was great for me.
What other cool stuff? I played on an Annie Lennox album in CT not too long ago. She came out and used a kidās choir and wanted some African infused drumming and she knew Johnny and the band from the 46664 shows and so, I got the gig and I ended up in the studio with her for a day, which was magnificent as well. Thereās been all those kinds of really great ones. We also guested with Carlos Santana on his tour, we played at the Joāburg Stadium with him so, thereās been all kinds of really great experiences.
Now, youāve got the qualification. Are you going to go into the corporate world?
Iām going to put a foot into the corporate world, I think, thatās my aim but I want to stay in the space of creativity and helping people to unleash ideas. If I can coach people to lose the fear of creating and lose the fear of judgement in coming up with ideas and throwing things out in a chaotic manner then Iāll be very happy. Iād do that for the rest of my life happily, and play drums for a hobby.
Talk to us about how you get those creative juices going?
I believe that as musicians we have a few dimensions we tap into and I donāt think they happen in an orderly manner. They happen in a chaotic manner so, itās very much a process of divergence and convergence so, you throw out bunches of ideas without judgement, and no ownership and no pressurises and then you choose the best ones and then you eventually hone in on the best for that particular occasion.
Using that metaphor in commercial life it would be things like listening properly or focussed listening so, youāre actually really hearing what somebody is saying and youāre able to listen not just through words, but through watching somebody and looking at body language and everything. As a musician, you have to do that all the time so, thatās one thing. Another one is collaborating with the right people. Youāre as good as the 5 people in the room with you so, I think thatās a very powerful dimension. Being in flow and getting in flow where 10 minutes feels like one minute. Music is a very powerful portal to get into that but I believe thereās various ways you can get into that state. Then just retaining a childlike nativity, the Ken Robinson approach of not letting your creativity get educated out of you and retain a sense of playfulness.
Peter Gabriel and Robert Plant, who are over 70, have the twinkle in their eyes and the playfulness of 10-year olds ā itās quite amazing. Itās incredible to me. It was a huge learning curve just having those conversations with them so, I believe retaining your inner child, getting into flow, removing filters, because we filter stuff away where we donāt see things for what they could be. So, Iām trying to think of an example. So, if you drive to work every day your route to work becomes invisible because your brain tells you itās not a threat, so you donāt see anything. Whereas, you could be, and if you practice to remove those filters, you can see things like youāve never seen them before and thatās the route of great inventions and great innovation.
Youāve mentioned Peter Gabriel and Iāve met him in Davos 2 or 3 years ago, and being a big fan of his music right from the early days of Genesis. I asked him this question about creativity. He said, when he gets a block he gets on a train and watches the train rushing by, almost like a primordial thought of you were running through the forest thousands of years ago. Do you have something similar for yourself, if you get a creative block that you can shatter that?
I do. I go running. Iāve been running all my life so, thatās my unblocking mechanism.
And it works?
Yes, it works for sure. Yes, Iāve recently started boxing. Iāve been boxing for the last 2 years and thatās probably the most powerful way of getting into a zoned-out state for me, where my mind just releases all the frustrations and all the worries and I come out the other side after an hour, like Iāve had a factory reset. Iām finding boxing even more powerful than running but those 2 things. So, physical exercise, for me, does the trick.
Youāre also a composer? Do you believe in muses? Do you believe that you have a connection when youāre composing music?
Yes, I think so. I think you connect to the same space that you do when you go into a state of flow or a state of grace so, thatās the muse for me. Johnny Clegg talks about the Zulu walking song where you get these repetitive rhythms and notes that go round and round, like a Zulu street guitar. Itās the same cord for 2 hours and you can either see those as repetitive or you can see it as a big cyclical wheel to jump into. It takes you somewhere, it transports you so, Iām a believer in those kinds of muses. When Iām coming up with ideas Iāll often just sit in a room with instruments with a drum set for 30 minutes, Iād play the same thing for 30 minutes, and out of that zen simplicity all kinds of things emerge. Thatās my best route.
I know youāre a big reader so, youāll appreciate this little story. Iām reading Isaacsonās biography on Einstein at the moment and Einstein loved Mozart and the reason he loved Mozart was because of simplicity. Youāve actually just identified that as well, with the Zulu street guitar and the simplicity of your own processes. Isaacson says that simplicity is genius, or that was what Einstein was trying to get across. Does that resonate with you?
Yes, it does. Simplicity ā the way I see it is this. Simplicity backed up by huge complexity or huge gravitas is genius. When you see a sketch by Picasso or a composition by Philip Glass, or Elon Musk talking about SpaceX ā he talks about it in a very simple language but itās backed by such depth. For me that defines genius so, yes, I would agree. For me, if I hear somebody talking about a subject that they can explain very simply in very few words and you understand it completely ā it means theyāre a master of that. When somebody over-complicates an explanation, it means they donāt quite know what theyāre talking about. Thatās my observation.
I think Warren Buffett is probably another very good example for you. Just to close off with, before we finish off, where your tour is going to be going to. Classical music ā do you ever listen to that?
Yes, I do a lot. Mainly because it doesnāt have drums. My ears are tired of drums so, I love Mozart, I love Chopin, I love Stockhausen, I love Stravinsky ā Iāve got a wide appreciation of classical music.
Whatās on your phone, the music that you have on your phone? What would your most played be?
I go through phases where I listen to an artist a lot. Right now, Iām listening to Bob Dylan a whole lot. Just a whole array of all his albums and Iām just loving it. Then Iāll move from that to Nine Inch Nails or David Bowie or Fela Kuti, or Salif Keita. I like any music as long as itās good. I love the new Justin Bieber album. Itās unbelievable. Itās genius ā thatās genius.
Thereās a lot of new music for me to listen to but just to finish off with. Your next leg of the tour. Youāve finished here in London, sell-out houses. Were you surprised at the enthusiasm?
No, I wasnāt surprised because weāve done 12 shows back home. We did 2 in CT, one in Durban, 4 in Johannesburg and then we went back to Johannesburg and did 3 more, which became 5 more. So, the demand has been growing. As Johnnyās fans realise theyāre not going to see him again they went crazy to buying tickets. I expected London to sell-out and be robust. The one interesting thing for me was that the SA crowds in London are normally very noisy and very boisterous. Itās lovely but itās like being in a rugby match ā theyāre very much in your face. For these 2 shows, they were comparatively subdued. It was almost like they were taking in the emotion of the event and not being as vocal as they had been in the past.
It was respectfulness?
Yes, respectful and wanting to retain every single word. It was very interesting.
So, from here youāve got a show in Dubai and then off to the United States to close, well just about, Johnnyās career.
Yes, weāre doing shows around America and Canada, just the big cities. Then I believe thereās Australia, France, Germany, and Switzerland still on the cards. Then weāll close off in Johannesburg, I believe. Thereās also a very exciting show, Iām not sure if Iām supposed to talk about it, but itās the 11th November thereās going to be a big show in Johannesburg. I donāt think itās confirmed yet but itās looking like itās going to be an event not to be missed.
11/11/17.
Exactly.
Barry, itās been great talking.
Thanks, Alec. Thanks for having me.