Crime is an entrenched and serious problem in South Africa, from the everyday, small-scale petty theft that erodes our social trust to the lurid murders that capture our headlines. But when crime is used to further crime, when investigators are murdered to hinder the investigation of other crimes, the problem has reached epidemic levels. In this interview, COSATU spokesperson Patrick Craven and head of business crime and forensics at Werksmans law firm Dave Loxton talk about the recent death of Lawrence Moepi, forensic services director at SNG. Moepi’s death has struck fear into South African investigators, and Craven and Loxton look at how intimidation and violence are increasingly used to protect the corrupt in SA. This transcript makes for sobering reading. – FD
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ALEC HOGG: Well, as we told you a little earlier. If you’ve perhaps only just joined us now, in Johannesburg there are traffic back-ups going back many kilometres. That is because the Killarney Mall, which is close to the highway, is the scene of a shootout at the moment between gangsters and the South African Police Services. There are a couple of helicopters that are shooting at or people in helicopters shooting at the gangsters, who are shooting back and, I guess, everybody is rushing for cover in that centre. It does tier us up very well for the discussion that we have set up for you on White Collar Crime and, in particular, what is going on in the country. Dave Loxton is the Head of Business Crime and Forensics at Werksmans Attorneys and Patrick Craven is the spokesperson for COSATU. Patrick, perhaps we can kick off with you. I was intrigued to see in a statement that you put out commenting on the death of Lawrence Moepi, the Forensic Services Director at SNG. That in fact, you had been working with him on certain investigations.
PATRICK CRAVEN: Yes, he has been one of the team from his company, which had been investigating allegations of financial irregularity and, so for that reason, many of our staff know him personally, so it is obviously a personal tragedy. But also, and this is where it comes into this discussion, the evidence would suggest that it was a targeted hit because there was nothing stolen, apparently, and this, I think, is very-very worrying. The suspicion is that, as an Auditor, he was investigating certain cases. The murder, since I think it is quite clear that’s what it was, was to keep him quiet, which is not only bad for the particular case that he may have been involved in, but is sending out a very dangerous message to Auditors in general, who have a crucial role to play in the fight against corruption. And if Auditors feel that they can’t reveal the truth for fear of their lives, it is a very-very serious situation, for all of us.
ALEC HOGG: What was he busy with in your instance?
PATRICK CRAVEN: Well, I don’t want to go into all the details…
ALEC HOGG: But were there particular companies or people?
PATRICK CRAVEN: The main issue was the sale of the old COSATU house and the purchase of the new COSATU house and I don’t know any more than that. I’m not just being a spin-doctor here. Obviously, this is something, which is being treated confidentially, and ultimately a report will be issued.
ALEC HOGG: Patrick, what about this whole policy of Cadre Deployment; now I know this is a tricky place for you to be, but if we take a Public Relations lady and make her the Head of the Police Services, aren’t we looking for trouble?
PATRICK CRAVEN: Well, I don’t want to comment on the particular case about the Police Commissioner but I think Cadre Development, in principle, was a good idea because having lived in a society where, for decades, a huge section of the population, were deliberately excluded from important positions. There clearly was a need to reverse that and it is reflected partly in Black Economic Empowerment, but also because there clearly were people who had been playing a role in the struggle against apartheid, who, in any normal society, would have been in leading positions in. Therefore, I think it was justified. What I think is a problem is the abuse, which may well have occurred in the certain cases and certainly COSATU’s view has been, that while we support Cadre Deployment, in principle, it must not mean putting people into positions for which they are totally unqualified and unable to do the job. Particularly in positions where there is any evidence that they are using that position to enrich themselves or their families and that, is the key problem we are talking about now.
ALEC HOGG: The Commissioner’s Secretary is a Brigadier. I mean, go figure.
GUGULETHU MFUPHI: Alec, your fight will continue for another time, but Dave I would like to bring you in for just a moment. When murders like this take place in South Africa, a Forensic, or Auditor, someone who is highly skilled, highly experienced in the job, doesn’t this just deter and maybe encourage corruption? Doesn’t it just make us feel that we are losing the fight against corruption and White Collar Crimes?
DAVE LOXTON: Yes, I think you’ve covered quite a few aspects of the murder and, as Patrick said, it’s an absolute tragedy. I think fortuitously, in South Africa, we haven’t seen many high profile cases like this, where investigators like highly skilled Forensic Auditors or Attorneys have been taken out, but one certainly hopes that this is not the start of a trend. You know, I, myself, have been asked the question quite a few times – “Aren’t you scared?” And my stark answer is, “the bad guys will take out the witnesses.” I like to think they won’t take out the Attorneys and the Forensic Auditors but, obviously, Forensic Auditors who are going to testify and are potential witnesses, are at risk. But I always like to think that as an Attorney, I’m not exposed, but it did send a shock through the society. I mean the phones were ringing off the hook on Friday and I was phoned shortly after it had happened. I knew Lawrence personally, thanks to a very small community, and it is quite scary, yes; if we are getting into that sort of domain, where organised hits will be made on people investigating high profile cases.
ALEC HOGG: But Russia is full of journalists being bumped off, left, right, and centre; why should you be immune when criminals take over a society?
DAVE LOXTON: Are you trying to make me feel good?
ALEC HOGG: No, I’m just trying to tell you this is the reality of where we are living at the moment and those are the issues that we cannot; a murder like that of Lawrence Moepi is an outrage. An outrage to our whole society and I don’t know if we are taking it as seriously as we should.
DAVE LOXTON: Yes, I think you are quite right. It is an outrage and, well I certainly hope that the Police are throwing all the resources at it, which they say they are. We will find the perpetrators brought to book but, more than that, you know; all of us have to just continue with our jobs. Obviously, be a bit more alert, if we weren’t. I’ve done many cases, I can only think of three where I’ve had threats and serious threats made at me. Where I’ve then been offered Armed Security and the like. As I say, I’ve always, maybe stupidly thought well, as an Attorney I might be immune but now, as you rightly say, maybe we should be a bit more alert and we are heading into that kind of dangerous area in South Africa.
ALEC HOGG: Even Investment Managers get shot. Steven Mauldin-Hall was shot four times because Brett Kebble didn’t like him and that was possible. So, the reality of our society is and, you know, more strength to you guys, Patrick, you continue to wage a war against crime that, perhaps, is not being supported as well as it should be.
PATRICK CRAVEN: Well, the problem is, I think partly, is it is well supported in words. Everybody will come along to a programme like this and say they are totally against corruption but we are concerned that at the slow rate at which people are actually prosecuted and that ties in with the earlier discussion, because obviously, getting all the evidence is a crucial part of that. And, if the people who are finding that evidence now feel under threat we are moving backwards. But, I am glad, in a way, you mentioned Russia because, we make the mistake sometimes of seeing this as a South African problem. Whereas, in fact, it is global; it seems to be happening all over the world, that corruption is increasing and the follow-up criminal acts are also increasing. So, it is something we should look at very broadly while, of course, not taking away the fact that South Africa I think is, if not the worst, then amongst the worst.
