SA’s fresh voices: Phumlani Majozi – writer, author, pundit; endorser of free enterprise
Freshly returned from participating in annual Aspen Ideas Festival, Phumlani Majozi is delighted at how Election'24 and its aftermath has worked out. A prolific columnist, author and vlogger, the 35 year old from Stanger shares the story of his personal development and enthusiasm for promoting the contestation of ideas. He spoke to BizNews editor Alec Hogg
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Highlights from the interview
In an interview with Alec Hogg, South African thought leader Phumlani Majozi expressed optimism about the country's future, despite concerns about certain policies and challenges. Majozi highlighted the progress made in institutional stability and governance, emphasizing that democracy allows for the contestation of ideas and the opportunity to challenge policies. He acknowledged the shortcomings in the education system, noting the alarming statistic that 81% of grade four learners cannot read for meaning. This, he argued, needs to be addressed to ensure South Africa's global competitiveness.
Majozi also discussed the political landscape, noting the ANC's shift from dominance to a position where it must now collaborate with other parties like the DA, which he believes will push for better governance. He expressed confidence in the current ministries and their potential to drive development.
While Majozi has no immediate plans to enter politics, he revealed his intention to start a think tank aimed at promoting free-market ideas. He stressed the importance of having a robust contestation of ideas, particularly between pro-market and pro-government perspectives, to shape the nation's future. Majozi's focus remains on fostering a vibrant democracy where diverse ideas can compete and contribute to societal progress.
Edited transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
00:00:07:14 – 00:00:41:14 Alec Hogg:
Social media has changed the world of punditry and the narratives all over the world, including here in South Africa. There have been a lot of fresh voices that have emerged. Among them is Phumlani Majozi, who we are going to be talking with today. We'll be finding out a little bit more about him, and we'll be doing similar interviews in the near future to introduce you to the fresh voices that have made such a difference in this country.
00:00:41:16 – 00:01:09:12 Alec Hogg:
Well, I'm glad we are starting with you because you've made your name by talking about the kind of topics that we like to discuss at BizNews as well. Free enterprise, the power of the sovereign individual, trying to give people more freedom and responsibility. It's not a, well, I won't say it's the majority narrative that one hears in South Africa.
00:01:09:12 – 00:01:24:20 Alec Hogg:
But let's go back a little bit into your background. You told me off-air that you're 35 years old. So, you've got the energy and the vitality of youth, but you've also had an interesting academic career. Take us through that quickly.
00:01:24:22 – 00:01:53:06 Phumlani Majozi:
Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Alec. It's great to be on your platform, and thank you so much for the wonderful work that you do for South Africa. I'm from KZN, Stanger, a very small town on the North Coast. That's where I grew up. I did high school there in Groutville, and then after high school, I went to Rhodes University in the Eastern Cape, where I studied economics and information systems.
00:01:53:08 – 00:02:15:04 Phumlani Majozi:
It was a very interesting year. I remember in my first year I joined a group of young people who were very much on the left, advocating for leftist ideas. But I didn't stay long. It was just my first year. I didn't stay long in that organization.
00:02:15:10 – 00:02:39:02 Phumlani Majozi:
Partly because it was a bit militant. Radical leftist militancy wasn't something that was in me, so I only stayed in that society, as it was called back then, or that movement on campus, for just one year.
00:02:39:04 – 00:03:13:22 Phumlani Majozi:
But then I finished my undergraduate studies at Rhodes and went to UCT, spending a year there studying economics and information systems as well. After that, I came to Johannesburg, where I worked for a few corporate companies since 2012. In the process of being in the corporate world, I have always been fascinated and very much interested in the ideas of public policy, economics, and politics.
00:03:13:22 – 00:03:40:07 Phumlani Majozi:
I remember when I was an undergraduate student, even in high school, the things that interested me were international news. I would come back home and watch international news, and in the morning before going to school, I would switch on to BBC World News. A high school learner doing all of that before going to school was just very interesting when I think about it. As I was saying, in Joburg, during my adult professional life, I was very much interested in public policy ideas.
00:03:40:09 – 00:03:58:07 Phumlani Majozi:
As I was working in corporate, I caught myself on a part-time basis getting involved with organizations like the Free Market Foundation because I liked what they were talking about—a free enterprise system, individual freedoms, and the ideas of personal responsibility.
00:03:58:09 – 00:04:22:18 Phumlani Majozi:
So I got much involved with the Free Market Foundation, did some youth programs, and at some point got to sit on its board. Along the way came the Institute of Race Relations, where I got involved as well. I'm also now involved with OUTA. These organizations do something good for the country. They try to hold our leaders to account and propose ideas that I believe are fundamental to addressing our social and economic challenges.
00:04:22:19 – 00:05:06:02 Phumlani Majozi:
I hope that you and I will touch on those socio-economic challenges in our conversation.
00:05:06:02 – 00:05:13:09 Alec Hogg:
Of course, we will. People can also read your book, your most recent book. Is that the first one you published?
00:05:13:11 – 00:05:21:00 Phumlani Majozi:
It's my first book, "Lessons from Past Heroes." It's written to say we need to get things done ourselves. Let's embrace a free market system and personal responsibility. Very important is hard work and the importance of family.
00:05:46:08 – 00:06:13:14
Phumlani Majozi:
You know, discussed in the book because, remember, Alec, in South Africa at least, I think just above 62% of kids are not growing up with their fathers. And that is disruptive. When you break it down by race, it's even more shocking because only 32% of black kids are growing up with their fathers. You know, it's not that it's the majority.
00:06:13:19 – 00:06:34:15
Phumlani Majozi:
They are not growing up with their fathers. And we've seen the research worldwide on the impact of a child growing up in a broken family without a father. They get lost. In other words, there's a very high chance that things will go wrong in their lives.
00:06:34:15 – 00:07:07:18
Phumlani Majozi:
So the book touches on those themes. And by the way, it also discusses what my thinking was before the election that took place on May 29th this year. What would have been a better outcome for South Africa? What I was saying in the book was that it would be better if the ANC and the DA found themselves governing the country together.
00:07:07:19 – 00:07:27:02
Phumlani Majozi:
That is what I also discussed in the book. It's a book also about the history of South Africa, where we come from as a nation. I thought, let me pick up the people who did amazing things, Alec, you know, even in difficult times in the pre-1994 era. These people were in business.
00:07:27:02 – 00:07:54:08
Phumlani Majozi:
They were in entertainment, in politics. These are people who overcame the difficulties of a system that was designed in a racist and oppressive way. Yet they managed to work on their lives and improve themselves. And the question I ask then is, what is it that can stop us now in a democratic South Africa?
00:07:54:10 – 00:08:24:23
Phumlani Majozi:
Right. To better our lives, to improve our lives, to be productive participants in the market, and to bring change in the country. In the book, I strongly argue against black economic empowerment policies, not because the intention was bad, but because the idea of doing it according to people's race is not productive. We are going to end up enriching the black elite, which is what has been happening with black economic empowerment programs.
00:08:24:23 – 00:08:52:20
Phumlani Majozi:
So, I'm not saying that we should not have pro-poor programs aimed at uplifting poor people. I'm just saying that we can have them, but they must not be racial, Alec. Don't make them racial. In other words, have a program for every South African. And by the way, the majority of those people who would be beneficiaries would be black people because they are the most disadvantaged in terms of their economic status. So those are arguments I make in the book.
00:09:09:21 – 00:09:36:11
Alec Hogg:
Interesting. The point you make now, because I have the advantage of having been around during the 90s and seeing what was happening then, but being a bit of a lone voice, I travelled to India, saw how they had worked, and in particular, a company called Tata in Jamshedpur. Tata put together—sorry, Jamshedpur Tata.
00:09:36:11 – 00:10:00:12
Alec Hogg:
Anyway, about 100 years ago, he lived and put together a shareholding structure where the beneficiaries of the whole Tata group are actually organizations that uplift people. They've made a massive change. I think the Tata family owns less than 1% of the company, and those were the kinds of opportunities that South Africa had brought in.
00:10:00:14 – 00:10:23:06
Alec Hogg:
But big business decided rather, let's recruit some people onto our boards, and they would in that way be role models. There's a bit of revisionist history that one needs to look at to try and get back to what the original principle was and where we've ended up now.
00:10:23:06 – 00:10:48:00
Alec Hogg:
But going forward, where we are today, we have a government of national unity. You argued, as you say in your book, for some kind of collaboration between the ANC and the DA. Well, they certainly got it. The DA has brought through four members of the cabinet who are in their 30s, and we've never had anybody in their 30s in the last cabinet.
00:10:48:02 – 00:11:14:11
Alec Hogg:
In fact, I've just done some research today. The average age of a cabinet member has dropped from 61 years old to 50/54. So we're seven years down, helped along by those four DA cabinet members. What are your views? Being a young man, being a young South African, having very strong opinions on how our country can prosper, what are your views on what's happened since May 29th?
00:11:14:11 – 00:11:18:13
Alec Hogg:
Perhaps in a way, updating those who have read your book?
00:11:18:15 – 00:11:38:04
Phumlani Majozi:
Yeah. So, you know, I just came back from the US. I spent last month there, in fact, I got here last night from the US. I spent a month there for some business-related stuff, but I also got invited to the Aspen Ideas Festival, which is a big conference in Aspen, Colorado.
00:11:38:04 – 00:12:06:00
Phumlani Majozi:
I was one of the speakers there, so it was quite an honor to really rub shoulders with big names in America, in business, and some in politics as well. When I spoke there, in that panel discussion that was looking at Africa, you know, what's the way forward, what are the opportunities, what are the challenges Africa faces, and how we can address them?
00:12:06:02 – 00:12:28:08
Phumlani Majozi:
The point I made there when I was asked about South Africa was that I am proud of my country in the sense that, you know, here's a liberation movement that is for black people, and it has portrayed itself as that over the past 30 years. But on May 29th, it suffered at the polls.
00:12:28:08 – 00:12:51:12
Phumlani Majozi:
Right. And after suffering at the polls, they came out and conceded that, you know, the loss that we have lost the election. We are going to go forward and try to form a government where we'll have to collaborate with other parties. That smooth, sort of peaceful transition, I think, was a positive thing about South Africa.
00:12:51:17 – 00:13:15:05
Phumlani Majozi:
The Economist wrote recently about the state of democracy around the world and said that, yes, South Africa's democracy does have flaws, but it remains a relatively better democracy in comparison to other countries in sub-Saharan Africa. And I think they have a point in that our democracy has really held up. We have active NGOs. We have an active media. We don't have to agree with these people, Alec. They each have their agendas. But it's the nature of a democracy where people have a right to have their agendas and push them.
00:13:15:05 – 00:13:36:04
Phumlani Majozi:
So, I mean, I'm happy with our democracy and how things have gone since May 29th. Now the new era begins of this coalition government. What has disappointed me about this government of national unity is that I would have loved the government to be smaller.
00:13:36:04 – 00:13:58:05
Phumlani Majozi:
Right? Right now, it's been bloated. It's a big, bloated government, and I'm against that because it's going to impose a huge cost on taxpayers. I wish it was a smaller cabinet. I do believe it could have been smaller because, look, Alec, there was no need to create a government of national unity to include so many parties.
00:13:58:06 – 00:14:37:01
Phumlani Majozi:
They should have said either we go with the EFF or the MK, or we go with the DA and IFP to make things easier and try to limit the size of government. The fact that they called on this government of national unity and included so many parties, for me, was not a responsible thing to do. But anyway, it's done. Now the question is, what can we hope for? Hopefully, we can get better growth rates because our economic growth rates are so terrible in the country. Right. We are just growing at around 1% or less than 1%. You know, we need around 5% economic growth to seriously reduce the current shocking unemployment rates.
00:15:20:03 – 00:15:25:07
Phumlani Majozi:
We hope things like criminality will be addressed in the country. Crime is a serious problem.
00:15:25:09 – 00:15:58:06
Alec Hogg:
What do you think about the appointments? I get that we've got 32 ministries now and it's bloated. I get that some of the ministers have literally got one seat in government. But looking ahead, the steps that have been taken, the direction we're going, the point that you would have made in Aspen that many other young democracies didn't last very long.
00:15:58:08 – 00:16:18:18
Alec Hogg:
And yet ours seems to be doing all the right things when many of the old democracies could be going in the wrong direction. We've seen crazy things happening in the first world, in the Western world as well. When you look at our country today as a young man, as a man who's got a loud voice, nearly 100,000 people follow you on Twitter.
00:16:18:18 – 00:16:39:21
Alec Hogg:
They read your books, you publish all over the place. What is in your heart? Is it one of hope? Is it one of "we are going in the right direction, we can get better?" Or is it one of despair? And boy, I've just got to shake these guys out of their lethargy, otherwise we're going to end up in a bad place.
00:16:39:23 – 00:17:02:22
Phumlani Majozi:
No. Nope. I'm not in a state of despair. No, I'm not at all. There is a sense of hope. There is a sense of progress. I think our institutions are working. It's not to say that there won't be people who try and hijack them for their personal or political motives or agendas.
00:17:03:00 – 00:17:29:03
Phumlani Majozi:
That is going to happen. It does happen in a democracy. But I think we are making progress in terms of institutions. I may not be happy with some of the policies that have been pursued during the time the ANC has been in power over the years. But again, it's a democracy. When you are not happy with certain policies, you can then challenge them.
00:17:29:05 – 00:17:58:10
Phumlani Majozi:
And the May 29th election was a chance for South Africans to either approve or disapprove of some of the ideas that are being put in front of them. I have a sense of hope, Alec. I do have a sense of hope. And I think this is a new phase now of governance. The ANC has been put in a spot where it doesn't have to do things anyhow.
00:17:58:12 – 00:18:21:22
Phumlani Majozi:
And of course, with the DA and other parties, they are going to make sure that they push for better governance in the ANC and ensure the ANC doesn't do any harm. I do believe that the ministries that are critical for our development do have people who will do not a bad job.
00:18:22:00 – 00:18:43:10
Phumlani Majozi:
My hope is that things like education, which is very, very important, are addressed. If you are in a situation where at least 81% of grade four learners cannot read for meaning, that's a fundamental problem. You need to get basic education right if you want to make South Africa a globally competitive nation.
00:18:43:12 – 00:19:07:17
Phumlani Majozi:
So I do have a sense of hope now. And I think I'm happy that, while nothing's perfect, I'm just happy that we've transitioned from a dominant party that was already abusing its power. Now, we have this kind of government formed of people from various parties with better ideals.
00:19:07:17 – 00:19:18:16
Phumlani Majozi:
Some of them like the DA, because I do agree with many of their economic ideals. I think they are what our country needs in terms of creating a stronger, competitive market.
00:19:18:18 – 00:19:34:13
Alec Hogg:
Just to close off with, would you ever go into politics? Is that part of your future? And I ask this because you certainly want to get your ideas, opinions, and thoughts out into the public domain and have been very successful at it. So what's behind that?
00:19:34:15 – 00:20:03:19
Phumlani Majozi:
Well, I think at this point, I've received this question a few times. At this point, there's no thought of going into politics. Whether it could happen, I don't know. But for me, I think there is a gap that needs to be filled. Just to update you and let your audience know, I'm also starting my own think tank now that will promote and push for free market ideas.
00:20:03:21 – 00:20:28:15
Phumlani Majozi:
You will hear about the name of this think tank soon, but I'm starting that because I want to shape a climate of opinion, Alec. Democracy is not about ANC versus the MK party, or ANC versus the DA, or ANC versus EFF. It's about the contestation of ideas as well. You need ideas to compete on how we should organize our society.
00:20:28:17 – 00:21:01:14
Phumlani Majozi:
Should we create a society with bigger government interventions in people's lives, or should we create a society with lesser government interventions? Right now, I'm quite concerned that, yes, our democracy is making progress and does exist, but I'm not seeing a strong contestation of ideas—pro-market versus pro-government ideas.
00:21:01:14 – 00:21:34:03
Phumlani Majozi:
I'm not seeing that robust contestation. I think we need more pro-market ideas in the public space. My focus now is to push for that in the country. Whether politics will come through in the future, we shall see about that. But for now, let's fight for an environment where there is a serious debate on the ideas of how we should organize our society, especially with respect to the role of government.
00:21:34:05 – 00:21:39:01
Alec Hogg:
South African thought leader Phumlani Majozi, and I'm Alec Hogg from BizNews.com.
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