Freshly returned from another bout of high pressure-negotiating, DA Federal Council chair Helen Zille unpacks what’s been going on in negotiations with the ANC on forming a provincial government in Gauteng. In brief: the ANC needs cabinet seats to satisfy its various factions, but the DA refuses to “help the Gauteng ANC fix its own problems” so is demanding a cabinet split reflecting voters’ will. Zille says unless her party it treated fairly, it will return to Gauteng’s opposition benches. Critically, whatever happens in this province has no bearing on deals already struck with the ANC at the national level and in KZN. She spoke to BizNews editor Alec Hogg.
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Highlights from the interview
In an interview with Alec Hogg, Helen Zille, the Federal Chairperson of the Democratic Alliance (DA), discussed various political matters. Hogg questioned the possibility of striking a deal in Nelson Mandela Bay, highlighting the need for good governance. Zille emphasized that voters must choose effective governance. Shifting focus to Gauteng, Zille criticized the African National Congress (ANC) for setting unilateral deadlines and dictating terms, asserting that the DA is open to collaboration if treated as equal partners.
Zille expressed confidence in the DA’s young and energetic appointees in the national cabinet, including Leon Schreiber for Home Affairs and Siviwe Gwarube for Basic Education. She highlighted the importance of their roles and the challenges they face. Zille also addressed the ANC’s reluctance to allocate the Trade and Industry portfolio to the DA due to ideological differences, particularly concerning BBBEE quotas.
Despite these challenges, Zille remains optimistic about the DA’s potential impact. She underscored the necessity for the ANC to honour agreements and enable DA appointees to fulfil their potential. Finally, Zille addressed her role in education, explaining her inability to serve as Minister due to not being an MP, but expressed willingness to provide advice when needed.
Edited transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
00:00:10:14 – 00:00:29:12
Alec Hogg:
Helen Zille is the federal chairperson of the Democratic Alliance. She’s had a very busy few weeks. We’ll find out more about that in a moment, but more particularly about the major challenge that is going on right now in the province of counting.
00:00:29:13 – 00:00:53:08
Alec Hogg:
Welcome, Helen, and thanks again for joining us to bring us an update. A lot has happened since the 29th of May. You’ve managed to settle things down in the national government, also in the province of KwaZulu-Natal. But certainly, up until this morning, things were all over the place in Gauteng. Can you help us understand exactly what is going on in South Africa’s richest province?
00:00:53:10 – 00:01:24:16
Helen Zille:
Well, thanks very much indeed. What’s going on is that the ANC does not want to honor the statement of intent that we signed on the 14th of June. They want to continue acting as if they won the election and can dictate the terms to everybody else. As it happens, they only got a few percentage points more than the DA in Gauteng.
00:01:24:18 – 00:01:51:11
Helen Zille:
We were very close on their heels, and ironically, if the opposition voters hadn’t spread their vote out amongst all kinds of tiny parties, we would have been the biggest party in Gauteng, which would have changed the field entirely. But be that as it may, people get the government outcomes that they voted for, and the ANC got 34%. That is not a majority, and it’s not for them to dictate the terms.
00:01:51:12 – 00:02:18:15
Helen Zille:
My sense is that the ANC has not yet understood that they did not win that election, and that they have to bring us in on a power-sharing basis that reflects the outcome of the election. That is what it says in the statement of intent that we signed: the three principles under clause 16 – proportionality, inclusivity, and the outcome of the election.
00:02:18:17 – 00:02:47:02
Helen Zille:
And yesterday in negotiations, it emerged that the ANC had all along had no intention of bringing in other parties besides the DA, and they wanted to bring in the DA as a kind of prop or crutch to keep them in power, but not have any meaningful share in power. So the ANC, in a cabinet of ten people plus the premier, wanted to take eight.
00:02:47:04 – 00:03:13:09
Helen Zille:
That’s ten plus one, eleven plus the premier. They wanted to take eight and give us three. Now, for a party that is almost the same size as them, that was clearly absurd. And because it was quite evident to us that they didn’t understand the sufficient consensus clause, we were really going to be captives or hostages to the ANC in Gauteng government.
00:03:13:11 – 00:03:38:09
Helen Zille:
And that, of course, would have been fatal to the DA. We are not going to go into government with the ANC to be hostages or props to the ANC. We are getting in there as the voters intended to meaningfully share power, and the ANC had no intention of altering the voters’ outcome, and we were not prepared on their terms to go in.
00:03:38:11 – 00:03:57:04
Helen Zille:
They still say, well, we offered you this, and we say, look, this is ours to organize and to conclude in negotiations together. You’re not the offering party. It’s not due to your generosity that we’re going to be there at all. It is a consequence of the will of the voters.
00:03:57:06 – 00:04:10:14
Alec Hogg:
So how come everything’s been sorted out at a national level? An even trickier situation in KZN has been sorted out with the ANC and yourselves, but not in Gauteng. Why is there this stumbling block?
00:04:10:16 – 00:04:44:15
Helen Zille:
There’s no tricky situation in KwaZulu-Natal at all. That issue was solved in five minutes because the IFP was the biggest party in the coalition, and the IFP stuck to the agreement. The IFP allowed the ANC to have their share as a reflection of the will of the voters in KwaZulu-Natal. The IFP took their share, and they gave us our share, and we all agreed and signed on the dotted line, sorted out in five minutes.
00:04:44:17 – 00:05:10:18
Helen Zille:
At the national level, things were entirely different because we were working on a cabinet of about 27, and even though the six that we got was being very shortchanged in terms of the outcome of the election, given the fact that the ANC was only less than double the size of the DA, that would have been an equal outcome, even with 27 cabinet seats as it was.
Read more: Helen Zille: Down to the wire getting GNU done – now we must exercise patience for it to work
00:05:10:20 – 00:05:38:18
Helen Zille:
So Ramaphosa, without any reference to us, pushed it up to 34 and with deputy ministers up to 65. Now, you see, we can’t be caught like that at the provincial level because there is a finite number of seats, a finite number of seats in the executive, and there are only ten plus the premier makes eleven. So we know exactly how many.
00:05:38:18 – 00:06:11:17
Helen Zille:
And the Premier can’t just extend the provincial cabinet forever to make sure that everybody else is relegated to the margins. And of course, we didn’t know what the size of the cabinet would be before Cyril Ramaphosa announced it. So I suppose he did the best that he could with his deeply divided caucus and his deeply divided party. We got the best we could in a way that would keep the EFF out of national government, which we were committed to doing, and in Gauteng, it’s a different story altogether.
00:06:11:18 – 00:06:37:06
Helen Zille:
We’re nearly the size of the ANC. They need to recognize that and they need to respect the will of the voters. That’s all we’re saying. We’re not asking for anything more than is our due. They should have six positions in the provincial cabinet. Well, the premier, and we should have five. That is a fair reflection. And if they want to bring in other parties, we’ve proposed a methodology.
00:06:37:08 – 00:06:59:06
Helen Zille:
They give one seat up. We give one seat up proportionately to reflect the will of the voters. They don’t want to do that because they’re also deeply divided in Gauteng. They have all kinds of quotas and various other things. So they have to make provision for this one and for that constituency, for that subcategory and for that section.
00:06:59:06 – 00:07:20:07
Helen Zille:
And also it’s not our problem. It is their problem. And we in the DA have a voting mandate. We want to represent our voters in the cabinet in a correct proportion. And we will serve all the people, not just our voters, when we are in executive office.
00:07:20:09 – 00:07:37:23
Alec Hogg:
What happens if, and just for those who haven’t been following that closely, let me unpack the numbers briefly. The ANC has got 28 seats. The DA has got 22 seats. This is of a total of 80. So just the two of you, if there was no province of national unity, you could comfortably get above the 40 that you need.
00:07:38:05 – 00:08:01:23
Alec Hogg:
But yes, those who’ve been brought in, however, the EFF has 11, the MK has eight. So if the ANC were to go together with the EFF and one other party, PA, they would get above 40. If they were to do that, what would that do to your partnership or your agreement? Your deal at a national level?
00:08:02:01 – 00:08:26:23
Helen Zille:
I don’t think it will do anything. We’re not going to change the deal at the national level, and we’re not going to change the deal in KwaZulu-Natal. You know, we could use that as leverage and say we’ll pull out if you don’t do X, Y, and Z in Gauteng. But we don’t play those kinds of brinkmanship games. We can’t possibly say to KwaZulu-Natal because the Gauteng ANC is so divided and because the Gauteng ANC is not interested in sharing power.
00:08:27:03 – 00:08:55:00
Helen Zille:
We’re going to throw the voters of KwaZulu-Natal onto the tender mercies of the EFF and MK. We’re not going to do that. Obviously, that would be terrible if we were to do that to the voters of KwaZulu-Natal. So we aren’t going to do that. We aren’t going to do it nationally. What we are going to do is stand firm in Gauteng because we’re nearly as big as the ANC in Gauteng, and they have to learn to share power properly and not seek to manipulate it.
00:08:55:01 – 00:09:20:02
Helen Zille:
You were saying that they were going to bring in other parties? Well, what we exposed yesterday was that they had no intention of bringing in other parties. They pretended to us that they were, so they could hide the fact that they would try to keep eight out of eleven for themselves. And when we uncovered that, we realized the bad faith that was at play, and we also realized that there was no basis of trust on which to continue.
00:09:20:04 – 00:09:40:08
Helen Zille:
One has to have some basis of trust to make a coalition government work. They are also very adamant that they’re not going into a coalition with the DA, but the 8-3 ratio in the cabinet would definitely have been a coalition, and they would have tried to cover that up by putting all sorts of people into committees and various other things.
00:09:40:10 – 00:09:53:11
Helen Zille:
So we stood up very firmly for the IFP in those negotiations because we all share with the friends. The IFP played fair with us in KwaZulu-Natal. We will play fair by them in Gauteng.
00:09:53:13 – 00:10:01:12
Alec Hogg:
If there is no agreement between yourselves and the ANC, which appears to be a possibility at least, what happens then?
00:10:01:14 – 00:10:35:06
Helen Zille:
We go into opposition. It’s fine. We’ll go into opposition. They will go into government either as a minority government or try and bring the EFF and various other smaller parties in. They must do what they must do. But we are going to play fair. We expect to be treated decently in a partnership, not manipulated, not lied to. And we expect the ANC to recognize not only the statement of intent that was signed on the 14th of June but also the outcome of the election in Gauteng.
00:10:35:08 – 00:10:58:06
Alec Hogg:
So the key thing here is what happened at the national level that stays unaffected. What happened in KwaZulu-Natal that stays. That’s that one-seat majority that’s secure. However, in Gauteng, you’re dealing with a different bunch of people, perhaps with different agendas. And from the DA’s perspective, you will only go into government with them if it is on a fair basis.
00:10:58:06 – 00:10:59:11
Alec Hogg:
Do I understand this?
00:10:59:13 – 00:11:32:04
Helen Zille:
You understand it correctly. Furthermore, the ANC is so divided in Gauteng. There is the Alex group, as they call them, aligned to Paul Mashatile. There is a much smaller civil group. There are all kinds of undercurrents pulling things in different directions. When you’re in negotiation with them, what they are actually doing is trying to drive us as low as possible to take account of all their factions in the ANC.
00:11:32:06 – 00:12:00:12
Helen Zille:
They want us to solve their problems. They want us to solve the problem that they didn’t win an election. They want us to solve the problem of their deep divisions, and they want us to say, “Okay, we understand you’ve got a problem, we’ll only take three.” Now, it’s not the number of seats. It’s a quibble over the fairness of an arrangement, the essence of which has already been captured in a document that has been signed by the ANC and us, and that they don’t seem to have read.
00:12:00:14 – 00:12:03:18
Helen Zille:
Well, maybe if they have read it, they don’t intend to honour it.
00:12:03:20 – 00:12:25:19
Alec Hogg:
This is something that is relevant for the next possible step in the government of National Unity Coalition. Call it what you will. Where the intention of the people of South Africa was that you take it down to the local level as well. So you get these dysfunctional cities or city governance, which at least could then have some kind of a partnership.
00:12:25:19 – 00:12:37:10
Alec Hogg:
But it appears if this doesn’t work, if this can’t work, then what chance is there of a coalition in Ekurhuleni or Johannesburg being brought into a different situation?
00:12:37:15 – 00:12:46:18
Helen Zille:
Well, the big lesson for the voters of Ekurhuleni and Johannesburg is that the mess that they’ve got now is what they voted for.
00:12:46:20 – 00:12:57:00
Helen Zille:
And we will wait for 2026. It’s two years away from now, and the voters have got some time to consider their options.
00:12:57:02 – 00:13:19:17
Alec Hogg:
Things seem to be going really wonky in Johannesburg, with particularly the 200-rand-a-month prepaid electricity meter story that’s now come out, which the Johannesburg government is imposing. I see that the DA has fought against this all the way through, and you have a very fast leader in Belinda Cynthia Echeozonjoku. How do you say her surname?
00:13:19:20 – 00:13:21:14
Helen Zille:
Belinda Cynthia Echeozonjoku.
00:13:21:16 – 00:13:32:11
Alec Hogg:
She seems very feisty and strong and is standing against this. Can you give us some background to what’s going on there as well?
00:13:32:13 – 00:13:54:11
Helen Zille:
Well, the situation there is that the ANC and EFF are in a coalition with a couple of other smaller parties like the Patriotic Alliance and Al Jama-ah, and a party that couldn’t even get 1% of the vote has the mayoralty in Johannesburg. And that’s the tragic consequence.
00:13:54:12 – 00:14:14:02
Alec Hogg:
And they’re running out of money. So they’re looking for ways to get money from that, including a 200-rand unprecedented monthly fee for prepaid meters. It seems a strange approach. Is there any argument for it from their side at all beyond “you’re running out of money”?
00:14:14:04 – 00:14:33:21
Helen Zille:
You know, they’re all running out of money, and they’re in a real crisis at the end of this month because they need a 2.5 billion rand loan on terms that we can’t support, and they’re trying to find money from all kinds of other sources. And, of course, prepaid meters are often the way that the poorest of the poor get electricity.
Read more: Helen Zille on how DA selects MPs; Zuma, coalitions, Western Cape and McKenzie
00:14:33:21 – 00:14:41:03
Helen Zille:
And now that’s where they’re turning on the screws. So, you know, in the end, people get the government they voted for.
00:14:41:05 – 00:14:46:03
Alec Hogg:
Is there any possibility, though, of the DA and the ANC getting together in Johannesburg?
00:14:46:07 – 00:15:07:20
Helen Zille:
Well, there would have to be good faith first in Gauteng. When the ANC approaches us in Gauteng in good faith, recognizing the result of the election, prepared actually to share power and not to dictate the terms, we will happily look at Johannesburg and Ekurhuleni and Mogale City and even possibly Tshwane.
00:15:07:22 – 00:15:12:09
Alec Hogg:
And going further afield, Nelson Mandela Bay. Has there been any progress there?
00:15:12:11 – 00:15:45:22
Helen Zille:
Well, in Nelson Mandela Bay, the ANC is with a whole range of tiny parties and is also in office there. And it’s the same tragic winding down. We were the biggest party in Nelson Mandela Bay, the biggest party, but the ANC is prepared to offer people who should never be mayor in other positions just so that they can get back and have their hands on the levers of power and their hands in the till.
00:15:46:00 – 00:15:47:07
Helen Zille:
That’s what it’s about.
00:15:47:09 – 00:15:57:12
Alec Hogg:
But my point is, if you can strike a deal at a national level, isn’t it possible to strike a deal in Nelson Mandela Bay, which really needs good governance as well?
00:15:57:18 – 00:16:09:11
Helen Zille:
It does, it does. But you see, again, if the voters know that it really needs good governance, which they do know, then they must vote for it.
00:16:09:12 – 00:16:15:05
Alec Hogg:
Helen, just getting back to Gauteng, where is the ball? In whose court is it at the moment?
00:16:15:07 – 00:16:35:08
Helen Zille:
Well, I’ve just got off a plane, so I believe the ANC has had a press conference and said that I did not come back by the deadline they set of 2 p.m. today. Now, first of all, I know of no deadline. They’ve never set a deadline for me to get back to them at 2:00. But that very statement reflects their approach.
00:16:35:10 – 00:16:42:17
Helen Zille:
They set the deadlines, they dictate the terms, and the rest of us are supplicants who have to approach them with a begging bowl.
00:16:42:19 – 00:16:46:04
Alec Hogg:
So the ball is in their court to come up with an offer.
00:16:46:06 – 00:17:06:14
Helen Zille:
We’re very happy to go into opposition. We’ve said to them, we have not walked away from the table. We have not walked away from the table. But they must come up with a credible offer that regards us as partners. That reflects power sharing, which is what the result of the election was. And then we’re in.
00:17:06:16 – 00:17:27:09
Alec Hogg:
Before I let you go, can we just talk very briefly about the appointees that you have in the cabinet? You have six appointees, as you say. Interesting to see that. Well, I can’t remember when last we had people in their 30s, with that kind of energy in the national cabinet, you’ve got four of them, who you’ve put into those positions.
00:17:27:11 – 00:17:37:13
Alec Hogg:
Does that leave you with a lot of hope about our country in the future, that these four are going to be able to make a difference? Obviously, all six, but particularly those four young people.
00:17:37:15 – 00:18:13:11
Helen Zille:
Well, they’re four very energetic young people who have wasted their strengths in politics and in the DA. And they understand what we are about and are going to put their all into the job. So we will see if the ANC respects the agreement that we reached, if the ANC enables them to fulfill their full potential in those particular portfolios, we will give them every bit of support that we can in the process, and we have every bit of confidence in them.
00:18:13:13 – 00:18:18:14
Alec Hogg:
And the whole trade and industry ministry story. What happened there?
00:18:18:16 – 00:18:47:17
Helen Zille:
Well, that was offered to us directly by Cyril, and then he went back and couldn’t get it through his NEC because they said that they couldn’t give us a portfolio which basically administers and manages the BBBEE quotas of the ANC. And so they have really tried to strip us of any portfolio with ideological content so that they can continue to hold the reins of policy.
00:18:47:19 – 00:19:10:14
Helen Zille:
But we’ve got very important portfolios. I mean, no one underestimates the mess in Home Affairs. It’s amazing. Home Affairs, which Leon Schreiber… if anybody can do it, he can. And then there is Basic Education, which is one of the most enormous challenges. And that’s Siviwe Gwarube, and she’s up for the fight.
00:19:10:16 – 00:19:41:08
Helen Zille:
Then there’s Solly Malatsi in Communications and Digital Technologies. And he’s got a long background in communication. He’s well-versed in that field. Then there’s Dean McPherson in Public Works, and I’m not sure of his background there, but he will learn it very quickly. And then, of course, we have John and Deon George, who is very, very experienced and well-versed in everything that he puts his mind to.
00:19:41:10 – 00:19:48:18
Alec Hogg:
I presume, given your background in education, you’re going to be playing a bit of a role there on the sidelines.
00:19:48:20 – 00:20:03:15
Helen Zille:
Well, if my advice is asked, I’ll certainly give it. People have asked me, “Why am I not the Minister for Education?” Well, I’m not an MP. And so there was no way that I could be. That’s the answer to that question.
00:20:03:17 – 00:20:08:11
Alec Hogg:
Helen Zille, the Federal Chairperson of the Democratic Alliance. I’m Alec Hogg from BizNews.com
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