111 Gaza hostages await the outcome of ceasefire talks…
After 10 months of war, ceasefire talks are on a knife edge in the Middle East, particularly with the heightened possibility of a regional war following the assassination of Hamas' political leader in Iran. In this interview with BizNews, Israeli diplomat and international lawyer Daniel Taub says there are still 111 hostages in captivity in the Gaza Strip, "but the tragedy is that the price for bringing them home is not a simple one. It's releasing terrorists with blood on their hands". He describes it as "an excruciating dilemma" but gives the assurance that "we are trying in impossible circumstances and with the clock ticking to try and come up with what is the most responsible answer, responsible solution". Although Hamas didn't show up at the talks last week, Taub says the awareness that Hamas has been significantly degraded and is not able to get hold of weaponry and ammunition raise the hope that it "is now under pressure to reach a deal simply as its own lifeline". Taub also speaks about how Israel views the future of Gaza; as well as its relationship with its biggest ally, the United States, and other countries in the Middle East.
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Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:01.92)
After 10 months of war, tensions are running high in the Middle East. We speak to Israeli diplomat and international lawyer, Mr. Daniel Taub. Welcome, Sir.
Daniel Taub (00:13.893)
Hi Chris, good to be with you.
Chris Steyn (00:17.214)
I'll start by asking you how does the Israeli government view the future of Gaza?
Daniel Taub (00:25.925)
Well, you know, Chris, the vast majority of Israelis hope that Gaza could one day be a prosperous, stable neighbour. We could even trade with them. We could cooperate with them. That's what lay behind Israel's hopes 20 years ago, when it pulled out every single Israeli civilian from Gaza, uprooted all of their homes, and only left behind the greenhouses so that the Palestinians would have the opportunity to have some industry, some agriculture. And the tragedy then was that that didn't happen. Hamas took over. They trashed the greenhouses and they started firing rockets and missiles from the very areas that we had pulled out of.
But we still didn't give up hope. And on the eve of October the 7th, Israel was still allowing in some 20,000 Palestinians from Gaza every day to work in those kibbutzim and towns near the border so that they would have a livelihood, allowing in ill Palestinians to have hospital treatment in Israel. And the tragedy is that that was abused. Again, Hamas cared more about destroying Israelis than building up Gaza.
So the Israeli focus has narrowed. And now our main question is, how can we stop those atrocities of October the 7th? You know, over a thousand Israelis murdered, 250 taken hostage. How can we stop that happening again?
Chris Steyn (01:56.052)
And how can you?
Daniel Taub (01:58.137)
So what we really need to do is we need to allow the people of Gaza to have a future free of Hamas. Hamas we know are only one of Iran's heinous proxies. They really don't care about their own population. We see that they regard them simply as fodder. We know that Hamas has created a horrendous terrorist nightmare network in Gaza, you know, larger than the London Underground. The the number of tunnels that they have built deliberately below schools and hospitals, kindergartens and UN facilities, and not a single Palestinian of Gaza is allowed to enter in them. They say quite openly they are for us, they are for Hamas, they are for the terrorists, they are not for the people of Gaza. The only hope for the people of Gaza is if we can free them from this terrorist regime, Hamas, and then hopefully the potential of Gaza can finally be fulfilled.
Chris Steyn (02:58.762)
So, but where will you find people to rule in Gaza, to govern, considering that anybody who cooperates with Israel will be branded collaborators?
Daniel Taub (03:13.835)
You're absolutely right that there is a terrible regime of terror and anybody that speaks up against the Hamas regime, speaks out in favour of freedom, speaks out in favour of women's rights or gay rights or anything like that is placing themselves in danger but there are courageous people. There are people who are reaching out and we have models in the region as well.
People think that there's an Arab-Israeli conflict, but it's not true. If you look what's happened over the last few years, we've reached out to so many countries of the region. We've reached out to the Gulf States, to the Emirates, to Bahrain, to Sudan, who have made peace with us. We still have peace with Egypt and with Jordan because all of these countries realise that the future of their people cannot be wedded to the horrendous agenda of Iran – which is only one of destruction – if they want to build a better future for their people. And we need to work very hard to try and make sure that those people are given a voice. It will take time.
We need to degrade Hamas. Thankfully, we've been successful in doing that. A large part of the tunnel network has been put out of operation. Many of the terrorists have been removed. And we need to continue to do that so that Palestinians who really care about the future of Gaza can have a voice and an opportunity.
Chris Steyn (04:34.816)
Just to go to the war, Israel claims that it is not violating the conduct of war and humanitarian regulations and rights, but the casualty figures are very, very high. Even making an allowance for the Health Ministry of Gaza overstating those figures, hoow would you explain the discrepancy?
Daniel Taub (04:59.774)
The casualty toll is heartbreaking, as you said, and of course we don't know exactly what it is, not just because these figures are coming from the Hamas propaganda so-called Ministry of Health, but also because a number of the casualties we know are actually caused by Hamas. The terrible allegation that Israel bombed a hospital, you'll remember, turned out to be a Hamas missile that killed its own Palestinians and so on.
But in relation to the terrible toll, my suggestion is that you interview, you speak to military experts around the world. And they will tell you two things. Speak to the Head of Urban Warfare in West Point, John Spencer, or speak to the Commander of British forces in Afghanistan. And they will tell you first of all, that they haven't seen in history a cynical area of warfare like the one that Hamas has built in Gaza over the last 17 years, where all of the cement that was intended for aid has been diverted to build these underground networks, where the goal is not only to kill Israelis, as many Israelis as possible, but to do it in such a way that Israel can only defend itself by actually going through civilian areas and putting Palestinians in danger. And so that's the first thing, that this is an unprecedentedly difficult situation. And the second thing that they will say is that they're not aware of a military that has taken as many measures as Israel does to try and limit injury to the lives of civilians in these impossible circumstances, allowing humanitarian pauses, notifying where the attacks are going to be, even though this will allow terrorists to get away, dropping leaflets, and so on and so forth.
Daniel Taub (06:49.157)
There is a price that we pay for this, which means that it's a longer operation. It's one in some cases that is maybe less effective. But if you are a moral army trying to fight in impossible circumstances, these are the measures that you have to take. And I think there's an awareness within the military community that the battle that Israel is fighting is not just for Israel, but it's for democracies all around the world that are likely to face these tactics. And one of the things that you can see over the past 10 months is we're learning lessons.
Actually the number of civilian casualties today in order to take out terrorists is far fewer. This was a horrendous tactic where there was very little experience in the world. And as we learn we're learning lessons for ourselves and learning lessons for other countries facing terrorism as well.
Chris Steyn (07:38.218)
Just regarding the heightened possibility of a regional war after the assassination of a Hamas political leader in Iran, how do Israel see the consequences of that?
Daniel Taub (07:52.466)
So first of all, as far as Hamas political leader, Hamas itself makes no distinction between its political wing and its terrorist wing. We're talking about Ismail Haniyeh, who was truly an architect and a defender of the worst atrocities. And just in the same way as the world could breathe a sigh of relief once Bin Laden was taken out of the equation, I think we have to think it's a step forward for freedom when we see people like this who are no longer able to perpetrate their atrocities.
But it's not Israel that is making this a regional crisis, a regional conflict. Israel at the moment is being attacked on many different fronts by proxies of Iran all around the region. That includes not only Hamas, but also the Hezbollah proxy in Lebanon with its 150,000 missiles, including precision missiles. The Houthis in Yemen, we have Shiites in Iraq. And of course we have Hamas trying desperately to get the Palestinians of the West Bank and even inside Israel, know, riled up, thankfully without much success. And behind all of this, we have Iran, which is, you know, the head of this octopus of terrorism that is perpetrating all of this.
And Israel's responsibility is to defend itself on each of these fronts, again, because the target in the first instance is in Israel, but it won't stop with Israel. We know that in the rhetoric of the leaders, and we should listen to their rhetoric, Israel is only the small Satan. The largest Satan is the United States, and after that, you know, every democratic country is in their sights. So we really are fighting a fight that has – we don't want it to be a regional or a global conflict – but it's a conflict that will have regional or global consequences.
Chris Steyn (09:43.84)
The Israeli Defense Force has been at war in Gaza and Lebanon for 10 months. What is the price Israel is prepared to pay to achieve its ultimate aim?
Daniel Taub (09:56.577)
When you ask what the price is, it sounds a little bit like we're walking into a shop and if we don't want to buy this particular item, we can choose to walk out and maybe go somewhere else and find it better. Unfortunately, that is not the option that we have available. This is our home. Joe Biden, President Biden, likes to tell the story of his conversation with Golda Meir when he was a young senator. And she said, you know, she said, Mr. Biden, we have a secret weapon. And he said, what's that? And she said, we have nowhere else to go. And that really is Israel's secret weapon. Israel's secret weapon is that we will fight, we will do whatever it takes precisely because we know we have no other choice.
And that is the reason why after the shocking atrocities of October the 7th, incredibly, the planes into Israel were full and flying out of Israel were empty because Israelis all around the world, the ones who are backpacking in the Far East and so on, they were the ones who knew that they were the line of defense between the terrorists and their families. And the spirit of dedication, of commitment that we see from these young people reflects a realisation that, you know, as a popular Israeli song goes, we have no other country. This is the place that we're going to be and our neighbours will need to learn to recognise that. Some have and the others need to. We're not going to be a passing phase and until they recognise that, we're not going to be able to develop the relations that are going to bring prosperity to the region.
Chris Steyn (11:36.682)
Just over to your biggest ally of the United States, judging by recent engagements on the Republican side, in particular between former President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Chris Steyn (11:56.081)
And on the other hand, a rather chilly attitude from the Democratic candidate. How do you think the outcome of the election could affect support for Israel during the war and beyond?
Daniel Taub (12:13.125)
I think the relationship between Israel and the United States is fairly unique in history. To have two countries that are so deeply connected, not just by interest, but by some very core values. And I think there's a recognition in the United States across the divide that if you think about what the core American Western values are, those are by and large the values that Israel is fighting for in the Middle East.
That doesn't mean that there aren't differences, but I think the differences are dwarfed. The fact is we have seen from the current democratic leadership in the United States, from President Biden, a degree of conviction of Israel's right to defend itself that's almost unprecedented. I don't remember an American president who actually visited Israel in wartime to say that we stand by your right of defense, sending carrier troops, sending the weapons that are needed and so on.
And that is a tradition not just of one party, it's a tradition that crosses the divide. I think there is a challenge on the fringes of the Democratic Party in the United States today. I think there are voices that in some ways have lost sight of that American mission. I think in a way they're doing a disservice to the Palestinians that they're claiming to defend.
A few weeks ago, I was speaking to some young Israeli soldiers and they told me that in the part of Gaza that they had been, there was a tunnel, a terrorist tunnel that came up in a house. And the tunnel opened and the terrorist inside sent out a four-year-old girl barefoot out of the house as a sort of bait to see whether there were soldiers in the area. You know, they didn't care about it. They just wanted to know if the coast was clear.
And you know, to those people who think they are supporting Palestinians, by supporting Hamas, I would say, which of those two Palestinians are you trying to support? Are you trying to support that four-year-old girl? Or are you trying to support those Hamas terrorists who don't care about her and are hiding behind her?
Daniel Taub (14:23.9)
And to those extreme wings of the progressive flank of the United States, which I don't think is reflected in its leadership, I would really urge them to think long and hard about what is the true benefit of the Palestinian people and how you're planning to support them.
Chris Steyn (14:43.304)
Are you able to give us an update on the ceasefire talks? I mean, people in Israel, families are very anxious for the return of the remaining hostages.
Daniel Taub (14:57.257)
It's hard for me to remember an issue that has torn the heart of every Israeli apart as much as the negotiations or the dilemmas over bringing back our hostages. On the one hand, we know that there are still 111 hostages in captivity in the Gaza Strip. These include infants, these include grandmothers. These include young women who we know are being subjected to sexual abuse. And obviously it's urgent beyond anything to bring these people home. But the tragedy is that the price for bringing them home is not a simple one. It's releasing terrorists with blood on their hands. We already have had terrorist attacks perpetrated by people who were released in the last terrorist release, the last hostage deal, just a couple of months ago. And we know that the Hamas lists of terrorists that they want to release include, you know, dozens of terrorists who were released 15 years ago in an exchange for an Israeli Gilad Shalit and then went on to perpetrate attacks again and we know that Yahya Sinwar, the horrendous head of Hamas, was himself released in a terrorist deal like this.
So that's an excruciating dilemma. The other issues that are raising, will Israel be able to stop terrorists going back to the north of the Gaza Strip? The north of the Gaza Strip is so close to Tel Aviv, it's about the same distance as Johannesburg to Pretoria. That would be the distance that these terrorist bases could be from the center of Israeli life, or our airport and so on.
Daniel Taub (16:43.789)
So we are trying in impossible circumstances and with the clock ticking to try and come up with what is the most responsible answer, responsible solution.
But I think you're absolutely right, Chris, to put the focus, every Israeli heart is on those hostages and there is nothing at this moment that would make Israelis feel some kind of ease after everything that we've been through than to see these hostages come home.
Chris Steyn (17:18.757)
There are hopes that the talks could be concluded this coming week. Are you optimistic?
Daniel Taub (17:25.597)
It's hard for me to be optimistic. I mean, we know that Hamas didn't show up at the talks. We know that every time that there's a proposal that's been put on the table, they will, you know, there's lot of psychological warfare here to try and make these things as painful as they possibly can. But I think one of the things that does give me hopeis the awareness that Hamas has been significantly degraded?
It's lost a lot of its terrorist leadership, many of its tunnels, which were its lifeline that went under the border from Gaza into Egypt, through what's called the Philadelphia Corridor. Some of these tunnels, by the way, large enough to drive a truck through, they have been mercifully closed. It means that Hamas is not able to get hold of the weaponry, the ammunition, and so on and so forth. And that does give me some hope that Hamas is now under pressure to reach a deal simply as its own lifeline.
Chris Steyn (18:30.868)
My friends in Israel tell me that they are very worried about a rift in society, particularly about judicial reforms and the drafting into the army of ultra-Orthodox people. Have you noticed society becoming more fractured?
Daniel Taub (18:50.545)
So I think people are worried to flag this issue. You know, before the October the seventh massacre, we had a couple of years in which Israel was very, very, let's call it engaged in very lively debate. It was very divided, as you say, over the issue of judicial reform, but it wasn't just judicial reform. If you dig down into what lay below that, it's the fact that Israel is a country of many, many different communities who come with very different visions of the country. You know, there are people who are the ultra-Orthodox, as you say. There are people who are very secular. are people, we have 20% of our population which are Arab-Israeli citizens and so on. And we're trying to find a way in creating a common space in which all of those voices get reflected. And that's not an easy negotiation. And at times, it looks like these issues might even pull us apart.
I think October the 7th did something remarkable. It reminded us all that we have far more in common than we have apart. And we saw a change that was quite astonishing. You know, one of the major movements campaigning against the government, the Brothers in Arms movement, the Brothers and Sisters in Arms movement overnight turned into one of the major organisations that was supporting the evacuees and the soldiers and the hostage families and so on. There was a sense of unity.
I should mention by the way because we haven't mentioned it. We still have tens of thousands of Israelis who are evacuated from their homes from the South and now particularly from the North of Israel, some 60 or 70,000 Israelis who cannot go back there because of the constant firing of missiles from Hezbollah. Another 50 missiles fired, 55 missiles yesterday fired by Hezbollah. And these people are now being hosted by people elsewhere in the country and so on. So there is a sense of unity.
Daniel Taub (20:53.187)
I think the big hope for us is that when we get through this, when Hamas is finally defeated, when people can go back to their homes, when we can start, you know, hopefully seeing Gaza rebuilt, but rebuilding also Israeli society, that sense of unity will remain with us.
Chris Steyn (21:08.722)
Israel is obviously facing enormous challenges. I think that is an understatement. How will you try and deal with these challenges?
Daniel Taub (21:18.627)
So I'll tell you something that might surprise you, Chris. But I think if I look at Israeli history, I think in a way Israel's challenges have been our greatest gift. You know, we have been given, we've been dealt a very tough hand of cards. You know, we were put in a part of the region that has next to no natural resources. We're not sitting on oil. Certainly we weren't when we moved here. Since then we found some oil and gas, but it turned out that that was an enormous benefit because without natural resources, founding fathers knew that we had to develop intellectual resources. We had to be creative. We've had since our birth, our rebirth, an extraordinary number of immigrants.
And I know in many countries immigrants are regarded as a liability, as a drain. They to us have been the greatest asset. They have been, you know, we have had immigrants from the former Soviet Union, immigrants from all over the world, from Ethiopia, and they have added innovation and creativity and cultural diversity and really been an enormous asset.
As for the fact that sadly we have had to constantly be aware of the need for our defense meant that we've developed a tremendously innovative, you know, startup nation. You know, many of the inventions that are saving lives around the world actually happened because we had youngsters who were in technological units in the army.
Daniel Taub (22:58.937)
And although this is a conflict that we pray wouldn't have happened and will end soon, I have no doubt that there will be technological advances that come out of the creation that was necessary here.
So in a way, my answer to you, Chris, is, you know, if there are challenges, bring them on, because challenges in a way have been the thing that have brought out the best in us and hopefully will continue in the future.
Chris Steyn (23:22.976)
Thank you. That was Israeli diplomat and international lawyer, Mr. Daniel Taub, speaking to BizNews after 10 months of war. Thank you, Sir. And I'm Chris Steyn.
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