Glynnis Breytenbach: On Simelane, Hlophe, corruption & the GNU

In her first chat with BizNews since the election, Democratic Alliance (DA) Justice spokesperson Glynnis Breytenbach comments on Justice Minister Thembi Simelane’s alleged links to the VBS Bank scandal, saying: “…the issue is that it’s untenable for her to continue as the Minister of Justice if there is in fact a matter being investigated against her.” She also gives an update on her party’s legal action to stop former Judge – and MKP MP – John Hlophe from sitting on the Judicial Service Commission (JSC). Meanwhile, she is pressing ahead with the proposed Anti-Corruption Commission Bill  – despite President Cyril Ramaphosa signing into law the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill, which makes the Investigating Directorate Against Corruption a permanent entity in the NPA. Breytenbach says the ID is not the “corruption-busting panacea that people want us to believe that it is.” As for the Government of National Unity (GNU) in which she now serves, Breytenbach says the African National Congress (ANC) is no longer “able to ram things through Parliament as they choose”.

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Summary of the interview

In her first BizNews interview post-election, DA Justice spokesperson Glynnis Breytenbach criticizes Justice Minister Thembi Simelane’s alleged VBS Bank scandal ties, calling her position “untenable.” She updates on legal actions against John Hlophe’s JSC role, presses forward with the Anti-Corruption Commission Bill, and expresses scepticism over the National Prosecuting Authority’s anti-corruption efforts. Breytenbach also highlights the ANC’s diminishing power in Parliament under the new Government of National Unity.

Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___

Chris Steyn (00:02.252)

Justice has become an elusive concept for many people in South Africa…feeling that it’s like a mythical creature, rare sightings, but mainly unconfirmed. Let’s catch up with the Democratic Alliance’s Justice spokesperson, Glynnis Breytenbach. Welcome, Glynnis.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (00:23.165)

All right, thank you.

Chris Steyn (00:25.528)

Glynnis, may we start with the Minister of Justice and her alleged links to the VBS banking scandal. What is the latest from your side?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (00:38.249)

Well, there have been no startling recent developments. It’s rather startling that she has these links to the VBS bank. But now that being digested, it doesn’t look good. The timing is shocking for her. The short period of time between the investment being made and her receiving the so-called loan is very short. It’s mere days. So, you know, it looks like there’s something to explain. 

But, you we have asked her to come to the Justice Portfolio Committee to tell us how, principally how she’s going to deal with this rather glaring conflict of interest between herself as the sort of head of the pyramid of justice and the NPA who has to – at the end of the day – if there’s a matter to be sorted out, to prosecute her. So there’s a problem there. She must tell us how she’s going to manage that. I don’t see how it’s going to be managed satisfactorily. 

She’s appearing on Friday. So we’ll see how it goes. I know that she’s had to make, prepare a report to the President and that she will appear before the ANC’s Integrity Committee. So, you know, let’s see how it goes.

While she was the Mayor of Polokwane, there were some problems there. So, you know, let’s see how develops. We don’t have all the facts. I’m aware of that. Certainly, I don’t have all the facts. I’m hesitant to make a quick judgment. But the facts that we do have demonstrate that there is a glaring conflict of interest, and that needs to be dealt with.

Chris Steyn (02:30.181)

The Public Protector has also been asked to investigate. Don’t you think she should have stepped down while all these investigations are being done?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (02:37.737)

Well, you know, it may have been the prudent thing to do to step aside for the time being. The President may still decide to remove her or suspend her. I don’t know. What is the issue is that it’s untenable for her to continue as the Minister of Justice if there is in fact a matter being investigated against her.

Chris Steyn (03:03.065)

Now, your party has also launched legal action to stop former Judge John Hlophe from sitting on the Judicial Service Commission where you are also sitting. How is that going?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (03:17.961)

Well, one of the parties, I’m not sure who it was, one of the political parties approached the Constitutional Court for direct access. They did receive some correspondence. I don’t know. It was unclear whether they were being asked to provide reasons why they should get direct access or whether they had in fact been granted direct access. I’m not sure. But excuse me.

Chris Steyn (03:43.488)

I think the court has ordered responding affidavits to be submitted.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (03:49.181)

Yeah, yeah. So I don’t know if that grants them direct access or if that means they’re deciding on direct access. I’m not sure of that. But our matter is before the Western Cape High Court. The date is imminent. Obviously, it must happen before the JSC sits next month. And so we’ll have to see how that goes. I think we’ve got a very strong case. I think that, well…First of all, it’s untenable for impeached persons to be members of Parliament. It should not be allowed. Unfortunately, there’s nothing that stops that. And anything that we try and do now to change that provision will not be retrospective. So it won’t change the fact that both Ms. Mkhwebane and Dr. Hlophe are members of Parliament. Can’t change that. But in fact, they don’t belong there. 

But then for Dr. Hlophe to think that he can sit on the JSC; to have the gall, the temerity to put himself forward as a candidate for the JSC. Himself having very recently been found guilty of gross misconduct by the JSC and impeached from Parliament as being not fit and proper to sit on the bench, know, it beggars the imagination. It’s beyond belief. It’s completely untenable for him to go and sit on the JSC too to participate in the interviewing and sifting of potential judges. There again is such a glaring conflict that if he was able to sit on the bench, you would expect that he would be able to see that conflict and himself deal with it. The obvious thing to do would be to tell his party, he’s not available for this position. But of course he hasn’t done that and he’s very happy to take up that position on the and render the JSC in fact incapable of functioning, you know, along with the rest of his party’s manifesto about, you know, destroying all the structures in South Africa, including the Constitution, just goes to show that they have absolutely no regard for the Constitution, for the rule of law, you know, for any of the prescripts that our Constitution and our law are founded on. Shocking, absolutely shocking.

Chris Steyn (06:22.282)

Since we last spoke, President Cyril Ramaphosa has signed into law the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill, which makes the Investigating Directorate Against Corruption a permanent entity in the NPA. Where does that leave your Anti-Corruption Commission, the proposed Anti-Corruption Commission?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (06:41.329)

No, the proposed Anti-Corruption Commission Bill is practically ready to be reintroduced into the Seventh Parliament. I want to have some discussions with the Justice Portfolio Committee, see if they’re wanting to support it, and if they are, then we can perhaps table it as a Committee Bill, which will make its passage through Parliament quicker. But otherwise, no, we intend going ahead with it.

The permanence of the Investigating Directorate in the National Prosecuting Authority is neither here nor there. It is not the corruption-busting panacea that people want us to believe that it is. Permanent, not permanent, it makes no real difference. The fact is that we’ve seen before with the Scorpions that as soon as Scorpions went after politicians and the shoe began to pinch, Scorpions were just banded. How? By a simple majority in parliament, 50 % plus one. So there’s no security of tenure, there’s no safety net, there’s no insulation, and there’s no real independence. Because all of us remember what happened. We were there. 

So what you’re asking the Investigative Directorate now to do is to go after the perpetrators of State Capture. They’re all politicians, they’re all connected, they’ve all either powerful people or connected to powerful people, why are they going to do it? It’s professional suicide. Why would they do that? Why would they do it with any kind of, forgive the pun, conviction? Why will they do it with any sense of urgency? Of course they won’t, because they’ve seen what happens when you do it. 

The Anti-Corruption Commission, on the other hand, will be a Chapter Nine institution, will be housed outside of the National Prosecuting Authority, will be completely independent, and to get rid of it, you’ll require the heightened constitutional majority of two-thirds which no political party is ever going to see again in this country.

Chris Steyn (08:39.094)

Now, last time we spoke, you felt confident that the African National Congress will vote in favor of that Bill. Do you still feel so?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (08:45.597)

Well, if they don’t, then they will be that party, and any party that doesn’t support it, will be that party that doesn’t want to end corruption in South Africa. So do you want to be the party that says, we’re not so sure that we want to be a bit soft on corruption? If that’s your message to your electorate, well, let’s see how that works out for you.

Chris Steyn (09:11.001)

Well, the last time I interviewed you, were in the opposition. You are now in government. What has changed on the justice front? I know it’s early days.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (09:22.707)

Well, things have changed in Parliament, subtly. In the executive, they’ve changed quite a bit. So, I have colleagues who occupy positions in the executive, and of course, they’re now in a different space to us. And so they’re the people that we now hold to account, equally to holding anybody else to account. So no favours asked, no favours granted. Everybody must do their job well, and then everything will go swimmingly – and if they don’t, they’ll be held to account and they expect to be held to account. 

So, you know, at the moment everyone’s performing very well and there are no difficulties and one hopes that that will continue. I’ve got no reason to believe it won’t. 

And we’ve already seen the benefits of the Government of National Unity. We’ve seen agreements being entered into that are to the benefit of the citizens of South Africa. We’ve seen the rand firm. We’ve seen interest rates about to drop, fuel price drop. 

So, you know, things are tiny, tiny baby steps, but things are looking a little better. 

So, I think, you know, the voters made it clear that’s what they wanted. They wanted a coalition government. They’ve got it. It’s up to us to make it work. 

In Parliament, things are not quite the same. The ANC, you know, got, depending on who you ask, 39 or 40 percent in the election. They’re definitely not a majority party; they definitely aren’t able to ram things through Parliament as they choose. So it’s changed the way everybody operates. It’s changed the way committees function. It’s changed the way we approach things. Certainly the other parties now have a lot more say, can get a lot more on the agenda. And so yeah, there has been a subtle change and it’s for the good.

Chris Steyn (11:15.18)

Thank you. That was Glynnis Breytenbach, the Democratic Alliance’s spokesperson for Justice, speaking to BizNews, and I am Chris Steyn. Thank you, Glynnis.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (11:26.355)

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