Political activist and commentator Phapano Phasha worked on the election communication strategy for MKP after resigning from the African National Congress (ANC), but didn’t join the party. In this interview with BizNews, she says many of the people who have joined MK ”are wounded…are running to the next best thing”. However, it is a “formidable force because unfortunately those who control the politics of this country haven’t learned anything. They haven’t learned anything from funding the president of the ANC. The ANC is as rotten and as bankrupt as before.” As for the Government of National Unity (GNU), she charges that it’s not “premised on any morality”. On the power held in MKP by former President Jacob Zuma’s daughter Duduzile, she says: “…you cannot touch her, neither can you question her”. As for why Floyd Shivambu left the Economic Freedom Fighters (EFF) to join MKP, she comments: “…he’s just saving his political skin. Whether he will survive, that’s another thing”. Ultimately she believes that if capital invested in black talent, “we will see a different type of voter who does not run to a new party every season, but a voter who looks at the philosophy of a party, who looks at the meritocracy; if the party has the right people who can serve”.
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Summary of the interview
In an exclusive BizNews interview, political activist Phapano Phasha, who crafted MKP’s election strategy after leaving the ANC, critiques the party landscape. She describes MKP’s new members as “wounded” and running to “the next best thing,” while condemning the ANC’s persistent corruption. Phasha also criticizes the Government of National Unity’s lack of moral foundation and questions the motivations behind high-profile political moves. She advocates for investment in black talent to foster informed, philosophy-driven voting.
Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:02.315)
South Africa’s political landscape changed suddenly and dramatically before the last election. And insiders predict that there’s going to be another big shift before the next election. We speak to activist and political commentator, Phapano Phasha. Welcome Ms. Phasha.
Phapano Phasha (00:22.668)
No, thank you so much and well, morning to your viewers. Thank you so much.
Chris Steyn (00:31.157)
May we start at the beginning. When you resigned from the African National Congress, did you join MK or what role did you play?
Phapano Phasha (00:42.062)
Well, I could not have joined the MK because it was just too soon because I had left the ANC in October. The ANC, sorry, MK was in fact registered earlier on, but it was obviously formally launched in December. What I just decided to do is when I was, because I, just to give you perhaps historical perspective…I was approached just before MK was formed and I had said no I couldn’t join MK because I was still in ANC at the time and when I left the ANC in October and I started engaging with several people within the ANC, because for me it did not make sense because I knew that the people who wanted to form MK, who had formed MK at the time, those were people that I had grew up with. I knew them from the ANC Youth League. And I had engaged at the time my regional secretary and I told him that two people that I know were part of MK. So I thought that it was prudent at the time that he speaks to them. And then in December, I also spoke to Benjani Chauke. And I had requested that he engages. And I presumed that he, because he was deployed in KZN, he would have better proximity to engage perhaps the Presidency so that they could find a way to ensure that President Zuma does not join MK.
And then unfortunately it did not happen. So MK was formed in December, not formed in December, but there was a launch in December, on the 16th of December, which was the day that Umkhonto we Sizwe was formally launched, I think in 1961. So MK was formally launched and around January or so, I was then called in to come and assist with the communication, but to join as well.
Phapano Phasha (03:01.198)
I just couldn’t because I had engaged with this comrades of mine and I said that, I’ve just left the ANC with a lot of pain. I can’t go back to MK because the people who were forming MK were comrades who were from the ANC. So it would be like leaving the ANC and joining a mini-ANC.
So towards elections, I was then called in. You know, we in the main…Nhlamulo Ndhlela was then appointed as the spokesperson and Head of Communication. So when I came in, really, I shaped his political narrative because he came from the business world and he was not really a political person. So, I mainly assisted him with the statements, with the narrative.
And then I requested a person that I had worked with before to come and also assist us. But in the main, was mainly election communication strategy for MK. So we’re really in the background… and we were just responsible for the communication strategy as you would have seen it and the approach and yeah, that’s what that was primarily my role. Thanks.
Chris Steyn (04:30.933)
Now, how do you feel now about the people who were allegedly involved in State Sapture joining MK and sitting in parliament for MK?
Phapano Phasha (04:45.698)
Well, I think as you rightly say, you know, they have not yet been found guilty by any court of law. But you must accept that MK, it’s a party of the wounded. They might have committed the crimes, they might not have committed the crimes, but in the public arena, they obviously do say that they did not commit any crimes. Well, they are there in the majority.
But I think it also…Look, if they are as guilty as the Zondo Commission says they are, I think by now, one would then be looking at the NPA or State Enforcement Agency to ask why there’s not been, you know, acceleration to ensure that if they are guilty, you know, they go to court and so forth.
Sonthey are there in MK, they are in Parliament and they there to prove a point, obviously. And what you also have, also have the ANC on the other hand, which also has many people who are alleged to be involved in State Capture. So what you have is a toxic combination of people that in the public arena. We are told that they captured the State, but they are representing us in Parliament.
So my feelings for now, I mean, I’ve worked with these people. I mean, I defended them. So I think my feelings are irrelevant. What now needs to happen is obviously justice needs to take its course. If they are guilty, I don’t think that they must be representing us. The very same way that, you know, with the people who are from the ANC who are in Parliament. But it’s a sad indictment that a few years later, we’ve not seen much done in relation to these allegations of State Capture.
Chris Steyn (06:50.209)
Can you tell us why Floyd Shivambu left the Economic Freedom Fighters to join MKP?
Phapano Phasha (06:57.388)
Well, I would assume, like many political entrepreneurs, that he’s looking for his new home where he will thrive politically. At the moment, MK is the next best thing. Everyone who has failed or is likely going to fail is likely to join MK, which is a sad indictment.
And for me, it goes back to one of the reasons why I could not join MK, because one of the issues that one spoke of is the fact that, at the time, let me just speak on myself, I was quite adamant that MK has no ideology and it has no philosophy. It’s just a group of people who are either from the, in fact, many people who are wounded. And now, I mean, I have not been proven wrong. You’ve got a Floyd Shivambu who left the EFF, which premises itself as a Marxist-Leninist organisation, and he goes to MK, which at the moment does not have any ideology.
But the projections are that MK will garner more votes, especially with the ANC likely to go down. So he is going to save his political career. And it’s quite evident that Julius Malema is going to contest for the third term. So I think he’s looking at his age and he’s looking at his political prospects. And he’s also looking at the prospects of the EFF and it does not look nice. I know, things might change for the EFF in the near future because they are still young, but he is going to the next best thing.
MK does thrive on Zulu hegemony, not necessarily that it’s tribal, but it does thrive on Zulu hegemony. And where we are, it is quite evident that the people of KZN would continue to vote for it. And as you would have seen with this by-elections, the recent by-elections, they have won two now. So he’s just saving his political skin. Whether he will survive, that’s another thing.
Chris Steyn (09:14.293)
What role does Duduzille Zuma play in MKP exactly?
Phapano Phasha (09:21.816)
Well, fortunately, Dudu is President Zuma’s daughter. So her role is more a paternal. Obviously, you cannot touch her, neither can you question her. I mean, you have someone like myself who played a very critical role within MK, but you can’t really survive. And I think that’s when I look back and I also think of many other people who put their time, who put their lives as well to ensure that MK grows and it wins elections. The very fact that you can just be removed in MK without any second thought.
But then you obviously know that because there is Duduzile and she does not speak a lot to be honest, but she is close to her father. She is her father’s daughter. And then you also have Nklamulu who is the son of “Joe” Ndhlela and the nephew to Tom Moyane. So they cannot do any wrong. And I think for me, those are the limitations with MK. I mean, when I spoke up, I said, no, but this is nepotism. But people don’t actually, people within MK do not see it like that. They’re like, no, but don’t personalise it.
But if you are a seasoned politician and you look at meritocracy, you speak to those things. But how I see it is that her father wants her to grow. Her father wants to leave a legacy for her. Whether it’s correct or incorrect, that’s one thing. But you then have to accept that MK is premised on a personality of cult. And it’s no different also to the politics of you know, of the ANC or pos-1994 politics, because all political parties, including the ANC from President Mandela to President Ramaphosa, premised on the politics of populism and personality of cult, where you cannot question a leader based on certain ideals to say that, okay, that’s the person qualified to be in your national structure. You can’t ask those questions
Phapano Phasha (11:46.126)
And I think the other thing is that, for me, which was really a red flag, was that she was the only woman who was in the National Interim Committee of MK. Now I know how senior I am to some of the people who were there in the National Interim Committee, including Nklamulu, that I was assisting and that I was shaping and coaching. And then they then say to me, you can’t join the NIC. And I’m like, wait a minute, but I’m just going to be one woman within the NIC and because she’s obviously there because of proximity to her father, I would be betraying many women who sacrificed their lives to ensure that women participate in politics. Many people who are close to me do not understand my thinking. And while you’ve got this perfect opportunity to be leading in the National Interim Committee of MK, you have this opportunity to go to Parliament because the majority of people who are in the NIC at the time, from the Chair and the Treasurer, I knew all of them. Now you have an opportunity to elevate yourself. And I just couldn’t.
And I think as much as, you know, I think also Dudu is quite protective of her father and there are also people who surround her. So it…for me, it looked like, you know, not, you know, when you, not Communist, you know, I wouldn’t want to say, or, you know, align Communism to any negative connotation, but where people, you know, you’re always looking over your shoulder…Baba, or Father, someone is not on your side. So it’s not, when I was there, and I know even now, there’s a lot of mistrust – and some of the mistrust is not even true. If they don’t want you, if they’re done with you, they can just make up something.
But she does play a very instrumental role because she is her father’s daughter. I mean, it’s like a family business. What can you do? What can someone like myself do who joins an entity? There’s absolutely nothing you can do.
Phapano Phasha (14:09.9)
It’s either you bear and grin it because you want political power, because at the end of the day it’s about power. Or you look at everything, your character and everything that has shaped you. And you just say, well, I’ve played my part, but that’s where it ends.
Chris Steyn (14:29.579)
Now yesterday there was another defection from the Economic Freedom Fighters to MK. Do you think MK is going to bleed the EFF dry?
Phapano Phasha (14:35.938)
Mm.
Phapano Phasha (14:42.284)
Well, yesterday I saw that Mpho, who was the first President of the EFF Student Command, joined MK. But currently he’s very insignificant. He’s currently a trade union leader at UNISA. He just recently formed a trade union. And you know, with…If you look at, if you look at Floyd, if you look at some of the people who were part of the EFF, and now they’re going to MK, they could have joined MK obviously before MK won elections, won 14% of the votes. They could have done that, but they couldn’t because opportunism did not, you know, it was not in their conscience. It did not make sense to join a party that is, you know, that’s does not have any representation in legislature and in Parliament. So now when they look at the numbers of the EFF and they look at the numbers of MK, and obviously the fact that MK has a base, it has a province that it can rely on to, know, to garner more votes, they had to leave the EFF. And there is, you know, when one looks at the political environment, it is likely that many people are still going to leave the EFF. I mean, I still have many, in particular women, saying that they want to leave the EFF.
But when I think about it, the EFF is not necessarily different to MK in terms of how leadership is structured. You have a high command; no different to MK. You also have an entrenched personality of cult. So I think they will do well because they are just going to MK because it’s fashionable, because they have been promised positions, obviously, if they do. So I’m hoping that the EFF will change its strategy because clearly with this obsession with open borders, correctly or incorrectly, did not assist them in the last election.
Phapano Phasha (17:07.498)
And really when people look at Julius, and when you look at the type of voters who are still highly cultured, it might be that it’s time that Julius reprises the ANC and not sorry, the EFF and repositions it. Not that he must change a lot of himself, but I think it’s important that he starts to tell people a new narrative of what he intends to do because, as I said, the narrative of open borders has not really assisted him. But over and above that, I think his relationship with Floyd did not also assist him because they were both highly combative and some viewed them to be highly disrespectful at the same time. So, I mean, he’s growing up. So hopefully he will be able to change his politics because most political parties at the moment are obviously looking at the coming local elections. So he’s going to look hard at the coming local elections so that he’s able to garner enough votes.
Chris Steyn (18:18.837)
How do you think MK will do in the upcoming municipal elections and in the next national election?
Phapano Phasha (18:26.798)
I think MKP is likely to do well. And I think that is because of the failures of the political parties that are currently governing, be it a local government or national government. I think, you know, when we look at the patterns, from COPE to UDM and all the other small parties, your ActionSA, you see that the South Africans are yearning for change. And they still have this hope that there might be a political party which will be able to change their fortunes. So I think how we look at MK or how we see for MK, it’s not going to assist. People are just looking for hope. People are hopeless and people are helpless. So our service delivery levels at the moment are quite low. And we have seen that also at municipal level how political entrepreneurs have used the coffers of the states to enrich themselves. So, and nothing has changed.
And I think another critical factor is the very fact that capital in South Africa has invested so much money dividing the black vote and it is not assisting. We’ve seen it with Colleen Makhubele who was given a lot of money during elections, primarily because she was pushing the narrative, you know, she was pro-Israeli, but quite evidently it was just business for her. She just wanted funding. The same with your ActionSA, which was giving a lot of money and all these other political parties. So capital has put a lot of money into political parties because they want to manage and they want to pursue, but ultimately they want to divide black votes. It has not assisted.
So I think, as I said, MK will garner a lot of votes because of these deficiencies.
But I also believe that if capital in South Africa starts investing in black talent, we will see a different type of voter who does not run to a new party every new party, you know, every season. Yeah. But a voter who looks at the philosophy of a party, who looks at the meritocracy, if the party, you know, has the right people who can serve.
Phapano Phasha (20:51.126)
So the people who fund political parties and who in the main are whites, they are not assisting our democratic project because they want to choose who should lead without looking if whether the person is fit for purpose and whether that political parties will be able to change and transform this country. So that is the major issue.
And unfortunately with MK, it’s not premised on any meritocracy. It’s many people, as I said, who are wounded, who are running to the next best thing. But with time, because also the party is mainly no different to the ANC. They’re running around trying to form structures because they want branches which will assist MK towards local elections. So it’s not really different to the ANC because they’re not focused on strategy that would focus on changing the lives of the people.
The majority of people are in poverty, they’re in squalor, in, you know, they are just in depridation. So they’re not speaking to that. They are just looking at the structures to help them win the next elections. But as I said, they are going to be a formidable force because unfortunately those who control the politics of this country haven’t learned anything. They haven’t learned anything from funding the president of the ANC. The ANC is as rotten and as bankrupt as before. And it does not even seem as if it wants to change. It does not look as if the ANC wants to win the next elections. And then you also have those other parties. So it’s quite an indictment that, as we head towards the local elections, as a society, we do not have people that we can really rely on, who understand how to create jobs, who have created employment in their lifetime. So you don’t have any of those things, be it in the EFF, be it in the ANC, be it in MK. You do not have the calibre of people who have started any factory. You have people who speak about changing our lives. Many of them, obviously, they have benefited. Many of them, they’ve, you know, extremely benefited from patronage.
Phapano Phasha (23:17.4)
They’re multimillionaires who have never worked in their lives. And yeah, that’s where we are at the moment. And by the way, these are issues that I raise in, even in MK, I do raise when I was there and when I was assisting, these are issues that I would consistently raise, you know, in particular organs of people’s power. Because I believe that you can’t have political powers where at the end of the day, it should serve me or my immediate family. And that’s one thing that you…you have, and people don’t really, voters don’t care that MK is going to be a legacy project for Duduzile Zuma, Nklamulu and family members. People don’t care about that. They look at Zuma, they see what he did and they are just like, well, he was better off. So we are not presenting anything that is better than, you know, the ANC or the DA itself – and your John Steenhuisen himself, I don’t think he even comes close to shaping and solving the problems that we are currently faced with.
Chris Steyn (24:26.653)
Lastly, what do you make of the Government of National Unity? Do you think it will last?
Phapano Phasha (24:34.798)
I don’t think so. think one of the things that we need to start looking at is the fact that President Ramaphosa is in his second term. And even before the elections, the results were announced, there were people who were already planning to take over from him. So at some point, President Ramaphosa is going to leave. The question is when. And how soon will that be? And as soon as President Ramaphosa leaves, there is going to be a change within the ANC, because there are people within the ANC who are looking at the DA and who are asking if the DA shares the same ideals as the ANC. But then someone else can then ask, what are those ideals? Because the majority of ANC leaders in any case, they’ve been given money by capital, by white capital, and they’ve enriched themselves instead of ensuring that this money trickles down to empower ordinary people on the ground. So there is going to be a shift.
But what is also interesting is that I saw John with the President of China, and he was greeting the President. It means that he’s also complying to the current arrangement, because we obviously know how DA has always viewed China. So it’s quite evident that John is just assimilating into the GNU. And the question is, John is now President Steenhuisen and the ministers of the DA and the entourage of the DA who now have access to patronage. How are they prepared to lose this patronage? Now they can taste, or they’ve got taste of the Blue Lights. They’ve got taste of state resources. Are they prepared to lose this privilege? So the GNU at the moment is on a shaky ground. And even in KZN, we might see new developments with the MKP going into a coalition with other parties like the IFP or the ANC.
Phapano Phasha (26:58.666)
But obviously this will be dictated by the dynamics of the time because as you would know politicians do not deal with their consciousness or they are not ideological, they deal with the current crisis or the dynamics.
But in terms of the GNU, I know for a fact that the contestation for the new ANC President has already started. So I think it will also depend on who comes in because the people who now surround President Ramaphosa within the ANC are likely to go with what President Ramaphosa is saying, because also some of them know that they’ve got the State Capture allegations. Some of them are afraid that they might be arrested.
And I think for me that is, and as you’re saying in closing, that’s an indictment when it comes to South African politics that this GNU it’s not premised on any values or on any morality. That we can look at the, you know, we can take the MK and look at all these people who are now in Parliament, but we do not have the conviction to question the people who are part of this GNU. These are people who, you know, the allegations of corruption, it’s so substantive.
And we are not saying anything about it because we want to impress investors. But we do not care about ethics. We’re not interested in ethics. We are not interested that there are people within the ANC who are in Parliament who should be accounting for what they did during the Zuma era, during the Thabo Mbeki era, and even now under President Ramaphosa.
I mean, we are not having a conversation, or the DA in particular, which is supposed to be an opposition, is not even questioning the results that have just come out from the Auditor General relating to the municipalities, because the DA itself has been captured. It has been captured by State power. It has been captured by these resources. And I think these are also the limitations of power, that if they start questioning how the ANC is failing in some of these municipalities, the ANC would then kick them out of this GNU.
Phapano Phasha (29:23.842)
So I guess these are the other limitations that the DA is faced with. But I also have to be an optimist. There is likelihood that the GNU might take the country forward. There is that likelihood. There is that likelihood that people who are from the DA and the business community will come on board so that this country is rebuilt because we cannot afford to have a country where young people are in squalor, where young people are hopeless and helpless and they are not changed and turned into human potential. So there is that potential of the GNU taking the country forward. So I don’t want to be radical on this issues because at the end of the day, our people really need to eat and it’s not happening. People need jobs. So I’m hoping that this GNU, which is littered with this corrupt people and littered with this dynamics and littered with some of people whom one can say that they’re on the far Right. But one hopes that this combination, as I said, will build this country. But I don’t know how long it will last.
Chris Steyn (30:51.541)
Thank you. That was activist and commentator Phapano Phasha speaking to BizNews and I’m Christine. Thank you, Ms. Phasha.
Phapano Phasha (31:00.428)
My pleasure
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