Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union (POPCRU) President Thulani Ngwenya has drawn a line under political correctness because he believes workers should not have to pay the price of government’s failures, politicians’ greed, or financial mismanagement. In this interview with BizNews, has hails the “surprise” support from new Correctional Services Minister Dr Pieter Groenewald, and hails him for acknowledging the severity of lack of resources and the impact of government’s broken promise of 40,000 new members, as well as for pledging to implement the proposed shift system, and for agreeing on the necessity of the self-sustainability programme in Correctional Services which POPCRU first tabled in 2015, and which involves putting inmates to work to contribute toward their own upkeep while gaining valuable skills. He also has praise for new Police Minister Senzo Mchunu. “We have agreed with him that we are going to have a sort of a presentation with him to show him the loopholes”. Furthermore, Ngwenya shares details of the urgent reforms POPCRU is fighting for in the Criminal Justice Cluster.
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Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:02.3)
The President of the Police an Prisons Civil Rights Union, Mr. Thulani Ngwenya, has declared an end to political correctness. He is here with us today on BizNews. Welcome, Sir.
Thulani (00:16.639)
Good morning and good morning to your viewers and how are you?
Chris Steyn (00:22.216)
Very well, thank you, Sir. For many decades, POPCRU has fought so hard and such a big uphill battle for the rights of workers. Why have you concluded that political correctness doesn’t serve the interests of workers anymore?
Thulani (00:42.221)
Thank you very much for having us as POPCRU.
Firstly, let me take this opportunity to indicate that political correctness, we have been following it. It has been very good, but all decisions that are taken by politicians, they’ve got adverse effect on workers.
For an example, cutting down of jobs, austerity measures. Our members are butchered every day under the pretext of saying they are brutal. Politicians come and say brutality of police and what what. As we have seen in recent days that police have been attacked, shot at. In Correctional Services, they are being stabbed by prisoners under the pretext of saying, prisoners also have rights. So police don’t have rights.
So those are political decisions. Now, how can you be politically correct when your members are suffering? Whose interests are you serving as a leader of that organisation if you don’t look at the interests of your members? Politicians look at the interests of the voters.
My role as the President and the leadership collective is to look at the interests of the members that are subscribing to us, that have a belief in us that we will address their issues. So that’s where we came to a conclusion that five years in the sixth administration, there were no salary increase. Public service has been chopped down. Operation offices where they operate are appaling. Now, why do you choose to be politically correct when your members are suffering?
That’s where we have drawn the line that we need to be politically aware, but at the end of the day, we need to be workers correct.
Chris Steyn (02:48.402)
Sir, now that we have a new Government of National Unity, what kind of action interaction have you been able to have with the new Minister of Correctional Services, for instance, Dr. Pieter Groenewald. Has he been supportive in any way?
Thulani (03:05.491)
To our surprise, the first meeting that we have with him, it was after he’s made pronouncement when he was appointed about our postur, 2015 resolution we took in, I think it was in Bloemfontein or in Durban, we took that resolution of we are tired of correctional prisoners to become ministers in prison: eat three times a day. Me and you, we don’t eat three times a day. They sit, they even confirm our posture as POPCRU when that viral video went out to say they are not paying electricity, they eat three times a day and what what. We said those people must start to work so that rehabilitation start with them. Sitting idling, doing nothing is not gonna assist them even on rehabilitation.
Then we decided as POPCRU to say, Correctional Services, can they come with self-sustainability programmes so that we will save money from tenderpreneurs of government. One, we’ve got prisons who have got farms. If those farms can be utilized effectively, there’s no money that will go and buy bread. They will buy food. They will buy anything for Correctional Services. And that food can also be extended to social development for the needy people. It shows that prisoners are doing something to come to the party to say we are sorry to the community, not even saying verbally, but by actions. They are saying that we are sorry because they are contributing. It saves money for government. That is number one.
Number two, in Correctional Services, they can have people who can do furniture. Other than going on procurement. Let those prisoners do furnitures. Let those prisoners do plumbering. We are crying about Day Zero in Gauteng today, about leakages and what what. Those people should go out and do something.
Minister Groenewald, when he came in, he supported us. Not that he’s a minister of leading so many people who’ve got farms and what what, but he saw the rationale that we put in our. Then we met halfway one another to say, it’s fine.
Thulani (05:28.634)
We met him. He confirmed that he’s also surprised that if you go to Parliament or to the Cabinet and tell them that he agrees with what POPCRU is saying, that he will be seen as a person who side with unions. I don’t know what is wrong because we’re not enemies of government, but we’re looking at things that can assist this government of ours to make sure that they advance the National Democratic Revolution without any waste of money.
We’ve got people sitting there who can do whatever that government needs to do to supplement work of government in giving back to the community.
We also talk about the issue of the shift system. He confirmed that from 2009 we had 40,000 prison warders who were supposed to work. We were promised that by, in 2009, that number would be double to 80,000.
Surprisingly, 14 years down the line, we’re sitting with 27,000 warm bodies in an overcrowded 211 or 210,000 prisoners who must be guarded in the whole country in the dilapidated prisons. Our members are supposed to work overcrowding. are being stabbed.
All these things that we’re saying, he just come to the party and said, we agreed. Our members don’t have promotion policy. We don’t have a shift system in Correctional Services. So must we be politically correct an drag our members to things that are not benefiting them? They also have to benefit. That is why we decided to say we want to be workers correct.
Chris Steyn (07:11.602)
Sir, what about the new Minister of Police? Are you getting support from him as well?
Thulani (07:13.636)
Very well, we have met with Mr. Mchunu. We have engaged with him. We have agreed with him that we are going to have a sort of a presentation with him to show him the loopholes.
Firstly, the big structure of SAPS that must be reduced because we don’t know why must we have so many generals when crime is on the ground? Why must we have so many people sitting in offices? Our call has been consistently saying as POCRU, police officers get out of offices, go and deal with crime because that is what we are educated for, that is what we are trained for.
Open up for public servants because you’ll be surprised. Public servants who are the backbone support structures, they end up at level seven in the police. But in the public services administration, you’ve got deputy chief directors and whatnot, but in the police you don’t have. So that structure still resembles Apartheid and oppression of those on the support structure.
He has agreed with us. It’s just us to deal with modalities, as to say how do we then separate those positions of Public Service Act as well as Police Act.
We have been complaining about shortage of detectives, resources of detectives, uniform for detectives that they must get more money. They are expected to wear suits.
Brain drainage in SAPS Task Force members have left because they want to get more money is an elite unit in the police. They are securing taxi people. So those are the things that we are saying were being practical. We’re trying to assist government. They must not see us as enemies, but they must see us as people who are on the ground, who ensure that in this, this is how things are going to happen.
Chris Steyn (09:09.8)
So it sounds like you have more faith in ministers, cluster ministers in the Government of National Unity than in the ministers of the old Tripartite Alliance.
Thulani (09:22.449)
No, we had some ministers in the old Tripartite Alliance. But you know, the movement was not in the pace that we’re expecting. But now, because maybe because of the election, everybody wants to prove a point to say, I can deliver. That’s what we want. We don’t want favours. We don’t want a person to do things that are outside the law. But we want delivery.
That’s the only thing. South Africans, they want delivery, including in courts. We are fortunate in our Central Committee that were visited by the minister. Were you aware that courts work only four hours out of eight hours? We have said that. They started eight, nine, at 11, they go on three time. Come back at 12, at one, they go on lunch. At three o’clock, they are closing. They postpone cases. From now up to December, there will be no sitting of cases. It’s postponement because they are going on holiday. Why must we have that liberty that the court must do as they please? Postponing to February, delaying. Those people that are delaying, police on the other side, they are doing Operation Shanela. They are arresting people. When they come to court, those people are going to be remanded in court. Cases sit. We’ve got the case of Senzo Meyiwa. We’ve got a case that have sit in court for almost 20 years. When stats are made, only police must give stats. Why must only be the police? Because the police are the feeder to the court. The Constitution says secure the attendance of the people to court. And then therefore, court must process. Have you ever heard court coming out and say our stats in terms of prosecution, these are the cases that we’ve received. And ultimately, we go to Corrections in terms of rehabilitation. So when stats are brought, everybody must sit and say, I’ve brought so many people to court, I’ve prosecuted so many, I’ve rehabilitated so many.
So we need synergy within the three Criminal Justice Cluster operation. We’ve got solution. We’re not complaining, but we want to be listened to. That is the call that we’re making as POPCRU. Hence we are saying, if you don’t want to listen to us, we don’t want to be politically correct. We want to be workers correct because workers…
Thulani (11:44.904)
They will be there beyond the GNU, beyond the Tripartite Alliance, beyond any other. Workers will still be there. So we need to stay with workers now and forever. We have to listen to our workers and advance the issues of our workers.
Chris Steyn (12:01.37)
Indeed. So before I let you go, I just want to ask what percentage of the prison population at the moment is made up by foreigners?
Thulani (12:12.125)
I don’t have exact numbers, but there are so many. There are more than 100,000 or more than 50,000, 100,000 people who are arrested, who are coming from outside countries. Is that I don’t have exact numbers, but I can get that from Correctional Service. Because even the Commissioner of Correctional Service complain like now, the Northwest issue. You’ve got plus minus 500 people that have been arrested. Those people are going to be sent to court, they’re going to be postponed, sit in court until next year.
Prison is for sentenced people, is not for postponement of cases, so that you’ll start rehabilitating. But more people who are sitting in prisons are awaiting trials. Now, you cannot start with rehabilitation for the person who have not yet been found guilty, is still awaiting trial. For how many years those people who are on Senzo’s case sitting in prison. They are awaiting trials, they are not prisoners. They are awaiting trials. Now how do you start rehabilitation? What if after so many years they are found not being guilty? After so many years they are found guilty, they have to start afresh. So we need to balance these things that there are cases that don’t need to go to court processes, but they have to undertake a mediation process and they come to court for sentencing. Serious criminals, they must be adjudicated in court because court is made to do justice. But as you see now, court is just a conveyor belt for coming in postponement, coming in postponement. That’s not what the court is supposed to do. They need to work eight hours. They need to work seven days because we don’t see any reason. They are also public servants. Why can’t they work like any other public servant? Correctional Services is working seven days. SAPS is working seven days. Traffic are working seven days. But all those cases, people are going to be arrested, they’re going to be postponed. But just because already magistrate and prosecutors are going on holiday. That is not fair. That is not justice. Justice delayed, justice denied.
Chris Steyn (14:28.626)
Thank you, Sir. That was the President of the Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union, Mr. Thulani Ngwenya, speaking to BizNews. And I am Chris Steyn. Thank you, Sir.
Thulani (14:40.73)
Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Chris.
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