(00:00) Linda van Tilburg
South Africa House was closed earlier this year without any public announcement, following months of reports about neglect at South Africa's embassy building on Trafalgar Square. When I visited in early June, a sign on a side door stated that the embassy was closed for business until further notice. But the consular offices around the corner in Whitehall were continuing as normal. Vendors in the area told me the building had deteriorated over the years and stood out like a sore thumb compared to the other embassy buildings on the square. They also said that construction workers had been coming and going, and it was clear work had started on the exterior of South Africa House.

When I returned this week, it was clear that the exterior work had been completed. I also found staff outside the side entrance again, having a smoke break. They did not want to answer questions about the state of the building, and they insisted that the embassy had never closed and had continued operating throughout.

The state of South Africa's diplomatic properties abroad has now become the subject of questions in Parliament, with DA spokesperson for international relations and cooperation, Ryan Smith, raising concerns about the maintenance and condition of the country's overseas missions and foreign assets. He has put questions to International Relations Minister Ronald Lamola, and he joins us now in the studio.

(01:30) Ryan Smith
Hi Linda, thanks very much for having me.

(01:33) Linda van Tilburg
You've now raised the issue of South Africa House and South Africa's overseas properties with Minister Lamola in Parliament. So what did his reply tell you? Are they telling us the full story now?

(01:45) Ryan Smith
No, it doesn't seem that they are. Trying to get information out of the department on the state of our embassies is like trying to get water from a stone. It has been difficult. They are slowly dripping information to us as I submit questions, but really just giving us the bare minimum. The picture being painted is that this is a problem, and I wrote about this in the Daily Maverick when I did a deep dive.

This is a problem that goes all the way back to 1999, when the mandate for the maintenance of foreign properties was transferred from the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure to the Department of International Relations and Cooperation. DIRCO has just sat on it and ignored it up until about 2019, when they suddenly seemed to wake up to the fact that these buildings were in a state of disrepair. And only when we made a noise about the lack of budgets last year did they actually write to Treasury to get additional money for the renovations going forward.

So, we know it has been left for far too long. The maintenance that should have been undertaken regularly has built up into a bit of a catastrophe, and it's going to cost us a lot more money in the short term. It's not looking very good.

We've now got a figure from the department. They've said it's going to cost just over 800 million for renovations to embassies around the world, but they've been very scant on the details, so we don't know exactly what that's going to pay for. The problem is that these costs fluctuate all the time, because you have to factor in the currency conversions depending on the country where the embassy is.

That's what we've been told. I'm going to submit a follow-up to get a little more detail. We also need to know how they came to this figure. Have there been building condition assessments? Were they conducted by quantity surveyors and architects? Have the relevant heritage authorities been involved in the case of South Africa House in London? That would add to the cost, I would think. We need a proper assessment conducted. So that's where we are at the moment.

(04:09) Linda van Tilburg
That figure you mentioned, is that supposed to cover all the embassies.

(04:21) Ryan Smith
That's what they've said. Before this, they specifically stated that the figure for South Africa House is going to be around R170 million, if I'm not mistaken. That's already R100 million more than what we estimated when we broke the news earlier this year, so the cost has already more than doubled. And they don't tell you much. They've said it's for a new, I think it was a water boiler or water heater for the building. They've then said that various personal residences will receive renovations, but that's it. They don't say if it's aesthetic, if it's to the exterior of the buildings, if it has anything to do with the facade, the interior or the basic infrastructure. Is it the plumbing that needs replacing?

I think they've done that because the problem seems to be larger than what we've been told. I don't think the department actually has the money at the moment to pay for the renovations in their entirety. That's my suspicion.

(05:30) Linda van Tilburg
From what I could see from the outside, the outside is now clean, and the embassy personnel are back. I found a guy smoking at the back door, but he was really reluctant to answer my questions, and within two minutes he realised I'm a journalist and stopped answering any questions at all. So, we don't know what's going on inside. Do you have any information about the lease from the Crown Estate that is expiring, and whether it would be renewed? Because when inspectors come in and have a look, if it's not up to date, you will have to pay for that, and you might not be able to renew. And the other question is how much the new lease is going to cost.

(06:14) Ryan Smith
That's a good question. DIRCO has said they are liaising with the relevant authorities, whatever that means. It may just be the London council. I think it's part of the Westminster borough, if I remember correctly. But we don't know what the new lease is going to cost. We don't know the state of the building based on the conditions within the existing lease, so there's a bit of a question mark there. An assessment might have been conducted and DIRCO just hasn't told us, or it just hasn't been conducted and we're still waiting for that to take place.

But I think it is worth, and this is something that we as the DA have been considering, reaching out to some of our sister parties in the UK, one of them being the Lib Dems, and asking their councillors on the London council to say, can you try, through your avenues, to determine what's happening with the building? Can you get some municipal records that we can take a look at?

Aside from that, I think the best route would be to get an architect and a quantity surveyor into that building to take a look at it and say, right, this is not up to scratch, this has deteriorated and overlay that with a report from the Heritage Council. That would give us a much better idea of what's going on. So hopefully we can get that information in the coming weeks and months.

(07:39) Linda van Tilburg
What do you hear of the state of the other embassies? You also went to The Hague. Any improvements there?

(07:46) Ryan Smith
The contact from the DA branch that we have in The Hague has said that there's been no movement whatsoever on the chancery. There have been no developments and no construction. The temporary office remains in place for the South African embassy there. The big problem was the amount of asbestos in the existing building, and I think trying to get quotes to deal with that, and the health and safety concerns, is quite complicated, which we understand. But the removal of asbestos from buildings took place decades ago in many countries. The fact that it's been left in our embassy right up until 2026 is just baffling. It shows the extent to which this maintenance has been left and forgotten about, in the face of health hazards and health concerns.

(08:47) Linda van Tilburg
I spoke to Lord Peter Hain about this and he was quite perturbed by it. He has also previously raised questions in the UK Parliament about corruption in South Africa, and about the involvement of some of the big four accounting firms. Would he be a way to raise the issues in the UK?

(09:08) Ryan Smith
Definitely. I think there are a few individuals and public representatives in the UK who could help us get more information from their side. There's no reason why DIRCO can't access that information. They're just not being transparent with the public. We shouldn't have to resort to this sort of investigative work from Parliament's end to get answers out of our own government.

And the most frustrating part of all of this, and I mentioned it in my recent press release, is that it is taxpayer money being used. If you look at the really warped financial priorities of DIRCO under the ANC, it's estimated that between 2012 and 2022 we spent 1.4 billion rand on aid to Cuba, which does nothing to advance our diplomatic footprint internationally. It's just by virtue of Cuba being an old ally of the ANC, dating back to the struggle days. We're essentially using taxpayer money in the billions to prop up a dictatorship, while money that should be spent on our embassy buildings is vanishing on party political interests, instead of looking after the assets and infrastructure meant to advance our economic diplomacy agenda.

The financial priorities in the department are really terrible. It's one of the issues we've raised in the GNU, that there needs to be a broader discussion on the national interest. What's good for the people of South Africa? Where should their taxpayer money be spent? And who needs to be deprioritised, I suppose, in that sense.

(11:02) Linda van Tilburg
Can I come back to what you said about the Liberal Democrats in the UK? Is it unprecedented to ask a party with similar views to yours overseas to ask some questions in parliament, or to find some information?

(11:18) Ryan Smith
That's a good question. I'm not sure if it's been done before. We're a member of Liberal International, which is an umbrella organisation of liberal parties around the world, and the Lib Dems are part of that. It doesn't mean we share absolutely each other's views and politics, because each country has its own circumstances and policy requirements. But within that umbrella organisation, we can reach out to one another and say, we're trying to advance transparent government, and better economic and general diplomacy, so let's work together. I'm not sure if that has existed before, but I think it is an avenue we might consider exploring.

(12:07) Linda van Tilburg
When you come across DIRCO officials, or the minister, or the minister's spokesperson Crispin Phiri, what are they like? I've found them not very cooperative. Are they cooperative with you, or what are they saying to you?

(12:21) Ryan Smith
Obviously they don't like me very much, because I think I make their lives a bit difficult, but that's my job. I'm elected to conduct oversight over the department and make sure people pull their finger out and do what they are supposed to do. We don't engage with many of the officials too often. I do see Crispin Phiri from time to time, and we have a fairly good relationship, as well as with Mr Clayson Monyela, who does quite good work as the DDG.

But Minister Lamola is never in South Africa. He never comes to Parliament. I can count on one hand the number of times he's appeared before our committee since 2024. DIRCO doesn't like coming to Parliament. They don't like being asked questions, and I think many of the officials get quite annoyed when we poke and prod. But we're a constitutional democracy. They had better get used to it, because we're going to be doing a lot more of it going forward.

DA weighs British help in getting answers on South Africa House | Ryan Smith