Fire the GNU – Rob Hersov, Gerhard Papenfus explain why SA (still) isn’t working

In this powerful discourse, two of South African business's loudest independent voices share root causes for the collapse of Arcelor Mittal's long steel business – and with it the viability of Newcastle, KZN's third biggest metro. Capitalist activist Rob Hersov and NEASA's Gerhard Papenfus pull no punches about malevolent and incompetent political rulers whose destructive impulses, they believe, are now being continued through the Government of National Unity. They spoke to BizNews editor Alec Hogg..Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here..The seventh BizNews Conference, BNC#7, is to be held in Hermanus from March 11 to 13, 2025. The 2025 BizNews Conference is designed to provide an excellent opportunity for members of the BizNews community to interact directly with the keynote speakers, old (and new) friends from previous BNC events – and to interact with members of the BizNews team. Register for BNC#7 here..If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.Watch here.Listen here.Highlights from the interview .___STEADY_PAYWALL___.In a 2025 interview, Alec Hogg discusses the impending closure of the steel plant in his hometown, Newcastle, South Africa, and the broader economic implications. The closure, which will impact thousands of jobs, is a devastating blow to a town heavily reliant on the steel industry. Hogg, who represents the concerns of local residents, expresses frustration with the way the situation has been handled, while his co-host Rob Hersov and guest Gerhard Papenfus, both business experts, focus on the larger economic issues..Papenfus, representing the National Employers Association of South Africa (Neasa), acknowledges the tragic impact on Newcastle but argues that the steel industry has been suffering due to misguided government policies. He criticises the government's protectionist measures, like excessive duties on steel imports, which have artificially propped up ArcelorMittal (AMSA), the dominant producer. According to Papenfus, these policies have hindered competition, inflated costs, and led to the decline of the steel sector. He also points to the broader issue of South Africa's economic stagnation, with business-friendly policies being stifled by red tape and government interference..Hersov agrees, blaming both the government and AMSA's lack of investment in modernisation for the crisis. He argues that the economic decline will worsen unless there is a change in leadership. Both he and Papenfus stress that the closure of the Newcastle plant is a microcosm of South Africa's broader industrial decline, where government inefficiency is driving businesses and foreign investments away..Edited transcript of the interview .Alec Hogg (00:10.2):Well, in our Tuesday show, we're going to make some adjustments in 2025. Instead of Rob Hersov and me discussing the latest in business, we'll bring in a guest every week to help us focus on a key topic of the week. And this week, it's personal for me—it's the potential destruction of my hometown. The town I grew up in, spent much of my life in, and still have strong ties to. It's Newcastle, and its steel plant is set to close down. The final decision came through last week. Gerhard Papenfus, from the National Employers Association of South Africa (NEASA), thinks this might not be a bad thing. Rob Hersov, I'm sure, will feel the same. Me? I'm here to represent the people of Newcastle, and perhaps to see if there's another way this could have been handled..Alec Hogg (01:11.821):We'll also be discussing other items of interest, but maybe, Rob, just before we bring Gerhard in, I hope you had a good and relaxing December break because you've got a big year ahead in 2025, as all of us do, unpacking the madness that seems to be business as usual in our beautiful country..Rob Hersov (01:41.207):Yeah, I had a fantastic holiday. I did a lot of different things, including a 24-hour trip to Antarctica, which was breathtaking. It was extraordinary. I tell people I went for dinner in Antarctica—it sounds a lot crazier than it actually was. It was a fantastic time, though I probably had three days more holiday than I needed. So, I'm itching to get back into action. I'm thrilled to be here, and I'm really looking forward to this discussion with you, Alec, and with Gerhard..Alec Hogg (02:07.885):Have you ever been to Newcastle? My hometown..Rob Hersov (02:12.097):I think I've driven past it or flown over it a lot, but no, the answer is no..Alec Hogg (02:16.885):And Gerhard, have you ever been to Newcastle?.Gerhard Papenfus (02:19.913):Yes, yes..Alec Hogg (02:21.741):How well do you know the place?.Gerhard Papenfus (02:24.395):Well, not that well. I've been there, and the town has declined over the years, like many other places. But, you know, what's about to happen there is devastating. When we have the AMSA (ArcelorMittal South Africa) debate, it's not that we're not sensitive to what will transpire in Newcastle once this happens. This is huge. I mean, it's devastating. It will hit the town in every way—our AMSA employees, all the subcontractors, and the entire economic ecosystem in the town will suffer. It will impact every person and every child in the town. We know that..Alec Hogg (03:08.845):And the astonishing thing is that Newcastle is the third-largest town in KwaZulu-Natal, and it's heavily reliant on AMSA, which used to be ISCOR and so on. But let's set a bit of background here. Rob, from an economic perspective—I'm sure you and Gerard are on exactly the same page here—when there are subsidies, they eventually catch up with you. Perhaps you could outline how you feel about the way ArcelorMittal has been operating in South Africa. After that, we can bring Gerhard in with his thoughts and discuss the issue in more detail..Rob Hersov (03:51.031):So, ArcelorMittal in South Africa has been the primary steel producer, and now they're closing down their long-steel plant. Long-steel refers to things like railway lines, and it's a disaster. It's a disgraceful situation, and the government needs to take the blame. It's already terribly hard to do business in this country, and to have an internationally reputable company like ArcelorMittal pull out of such an important industry is a disaster for South Africa—a disgrace for the government..You know, I'm a libertarian. I believe in small government, in selling state-owned enterprises, and in getting rid of BEE (Black Economic Empowerment), which I consider theft. The government keeps adding regulation, creating non-essential issues, day after day, which stifle the free market. When you look at South Africa from an international perspective, who in their right mind would want to invest here? We're de-industrializing. I think we've gone from around 20% of GDP from manufacturing to just 10%. Soon, we'll be a country based on agriculture, mining, and services—and unemployment will hit 90%. The ANC must take full responsibility for this disaster..Parks Tau should be tarred, feathered, and thrown out of government. But you know what happens to ANC members? They never get thrown out. They just get shuffled into another position. They're absolutely useless and incompetent. I could blame the GNU, but the DA, IFP, and PA have only been in power for six months, so they're still putting lipstick on the pig. The DA needs to take over trade and industry. Parks Tau should be fired—booted out like a gangster. And ministers like Naledi Pandor and Gwede Mantashe are absolutely useless. Unless we do a full clean-out at the top, this country is finished. We're de-industrializing, falling apart, and losing our steel industry. This is a disaster. That's the macro perspective..Alec Hogg (06:03.232):Now, Gerhard, from your perspective, I'm sure you agree with some of what Rob has said, but I think you would disagree on the loss of the long-steel plants. Just for those who don't understand, there are two types of steel produced by ArcelorMittal in South Africa—long-steel and flat-steel. Long-steel is what it sounds like—things like railway lines, rebar, and so on. Flat-steel refers to steel plates. There are two long-steel plants in South Africa: one in Vanderbijlpark and the other in Newcastle. Newcastle is by far the biggest, and that's the one closing down. The flat-steel plant, in Vanderbijlpark, will continue. So just to give people a bit of technical context, could you explain how you see this development, especially since many of your members are involved in the steel supply chain?.Gerhard Papenfus (07:03.105):Let me give you a bit of history—very briefly. In 2015, there was a 5% duty on the importation of steel. Rob Davies then said that had to go, arguing that we needed a developmental price for steel. But immediately after that, ArcelorMittal's parent company, ArcelorMittal International, came to South Africa. They had a meeting with Jacob Zuma, and shortly after, they introduced a 10% duty. The government then realized that for the steel industry to thrive, you need affordable steel—not cheap, but affordable..But that set in motion a process that eventually led to the downfall of ArcelorMittal. In December, they introduced an additional 52% duty on top of the existing 9%. Imagine a person who's ordered steel from China. They pay 10 million rand for it, and when it gets to the port through customs, they face an additional 50% duty. When it arrives at their factory, they're forced to raise prices by 50%. The result? The person who ordered the steel to build a store can no longer afford it. This kills the market. We said back in 2015 that this would eventually lead to the death of this industry. It's protecting the steel producer while killing the customer base..Newcastle will lose around 3,500 jobs—maybe 2,000, maybe more. We don't know the exact number. But when it happens in one town, it's a big story. When it happens in smaller companies—companies that used to employ 150 people but now employ 50—that's not news. It happens every day, but it never makes headlines. And the industry is shrinking, but the news doesn't cover it. The steel industry's been suffering because of this protectionist policy, and it's not just steel—it's a symptom of a broader, unfriendly market..Alec Hogg (12:06.29):Okay, but before you go any further into that, let's just address the issue of Chinese steel dumping. Right now, China's economy is under pressure. They have numerous steel plants, producing steel at an incredible rate, and they're dumping it onto international markets, including South Africa. This isn't sustainable for any country, because at some point, the dumping will stop. Initially, it's great to get cheap steel, but when that option disappears, we're left with no fallback. That's the argument Donald Trump is using in the United States—and I think both of you, if I'm not mistaken, are Trump supporters. So, you're essentially arguing that, in South Africa, we're accepting cheap steel from China, but we don't have a plan for what happens when that ends..Gerhard Papenfus (12:56.029):Correct. So, what we've got is not Chinese dumping; we've got cheap imports. But once that ends, we will have nowhere to turn. Let me give you an example. We had a strong steel industry in the late 1980s, but a protectionist policy was introduced, designed to protect our own producers. That protectionist policy persisted in various forms and is killing the local industry. What's worse is that steel prices are artificially high because of all these protections. We don't have a domestic market, and we're becoming dependent on outside suppliers. When they stop supplying, we're left with nothing..Alec Hogg (20:36.979):And by the way, if you're bigger, if you're of a certain size, we'll tell you who your partners need to be. And these partners won't be the ones paying you anything. Instead, they'll have some kind of political influence, as long as those they have influence with are well looked after. And then we'll make it difficult for you to export your products to international markets. We'll also make the cost of your production here excessive by imposing extremely high electricity prices. So, when you look at it in that context, good grief, it's almost as if we've designed an economic suicide plan. Maybe, Gerhard, I'm being too extreme here, because I also, like Rob, think deeply during my breaks. This thought came to me after listening to a Charlie Munger podcast just before he passed. It reminded me of how a rational mind thinks—always considering what not to do to avoid a disastrous outcome. When you see all the negatives, it's possible to turn them around, but it almost feels like we've created a system in South Africa that guarantees we won't experience any economic growth. What do you think, Gerhard?.Rob Hersov (22:06.867):Alec, let me jump in quickly because you're missing one huge element—education. We're failing massively on that front. We have generation after generation of uneducated, hopeless people. How do you fix that? It's not something you can turn around quickly. Gerhard and I could fix the economy in 12 months. We could get growth of 5–6% in a year. It's easy if you have half a brain and a commitment to capitalism and free markets. But the education problem is generational, and that will hold us back forever..Gerhard Papenfus (22:45.877):What's really interesting, just to add to what Rob is saying, is that we've completely ruined the education system from top to bottom. Then, we tell the market to make appointments based on a spreadsheet. But that's completely counter to how any businessperson would operate. For example, if I have two candidates in front of me, one with abilities measured at 50.1% and the other at 49.9%, which one would I choose? I'd choose the one with 50.1%, considering everything. What about transformation? I can't employ someone based solely on transformation. I'm paying them for their skills, not for the color of their skin. Yet, the government tells you who to hire, and if the employment relationship goes wrong, they say they have nothing to do with it. If you let that person go, you're left to fight it out in court, which is costly. And strangely enough, the employment regulations themselves drive wages down. Why? Because if I can tell someone, "Work for me at this salary, but if something goes wrong, I can let you go immediately," I can pay them more. But now, because of these regulations, I need to factor in the risk that things could go wrong, which forces me to lower wages. Now, as a businessman, I want to employ people who will help the business succeed. It just doesn't work. We will find ways around it, but ultimately, the answer is likely going to be to litigate over employment equity. We're already working on that. Just yesterday, someone sent me a question about the export of fresh produce. The government wants to impose a rule that says unless your BEE score is at a certain level, you can't export..Gerhard Papenfus (24:44.961):The big farmers—these are family businesses—how can you run a family business under these conditions? The answer is, you can't. We're dealing with politicians who have no real business experience. They haven't built anything. Now, someone might say, "Gerhard, you can't say that." Well, of course, some people have created businesses from nothing, but they're not the ones the government is catering to. This is beyond stupid because they don't understand how business works, what drives business, or what makes it successful. It doesn't matter what obstacles a business faces; it finds a way to succeed. When AAMSA threatened to close its long steel facility in Newcastle six months ago, some of the importers, some of the customers, said to me that they immediately turned to China. They said, "We're going to China." Why? Because that's what businesspeople do—they find a way. But the government's approach is to make it as difficult as possible for business. If we find a loophole, the government finds a way to close it. That's their focus—making it harder for businesses to operate..Gerhard Papenfus (26:36.669):And this debate is becoming increasingly race-based. Unfortunately, we're back to the times when race is the focal point. The debate has shifted to race. Now, we're told to hire based on color. It's as if the selection of a business partner is the same as a marriage. There are so many factors to consider when choosing a partner—culture being one, though I'm not sure what that even means anymore. Fathers don't appoint their sons in their businesses until those sons have proven themselves. But the government insists on forcing businesses to find "partners." Look at what just happened with the BEE Charter for the legal industry. It's absurd. You can't build something from nothing if you're just appointing based on race. It's impossible. We cannot function like this..Rob Hersov (27:53.303):Alec, just to follow up on what Gerhard said—if you look at the 34 ministers in our cabinet, can you name one who had a successful business career, other than Gayton McKenzie? Gayton had a business for a number of years, and he understands balance sheets, income statements, and cost productivity. Sure, there might be one or two in the DA with some business experience, but name one. Gwede Mantashe says he worked for AngloVaal for seven years and is now a communist—clearly, he didn't learn much along the way. It's embarrassing. These are all politicians, regulators, and bureaucrats. How do you fix a country when the people in charge came from an undereducated system, still believe in leftist ideology, and are now in positions of power? We're stuck. This country is going down the drain, and everyone should move their kids to America—not Europe, by the way, because Europe is a low-growth, socialist hellhole. Everyone's kids should go to America. End of story. South Africa is done..Alec Hogg (28:52.594):Okay, alright..Alec Hogg (28:58.399):Then we just slide down ever faster. But no, no, Rob, let's go back a bit. This is so clear. The evidence is undeniable. Poor Newcastle is going to be hammered because it received just a little bit of "help" back in 2015. I love how you described that. A little dose in 2015… and now it needs more, and more, and more, until eventually, it's destroyed..Rob Hersov (29:00.405):That was January 2015..Alec Hogg (29:24.947):Give a little bit of help, and then it needs more and more until it eventually kills it. First things first—stop giving the "help." But I also want to ask about the motor industry. South Africa pays 30% more for vehicles than anywhere else in the world because we have a local motor industry subsidized by the South African taxpayer. But no one complains. The penny just doesn't drop. Try importing a car from anywhere else in the world, and there's a 30% duty on it. So, what does that say about our future in that big sector? Are we arguing that we should get rid of the local motor industry, import all our cars cheaper, and then figure out what to do with all the people who work in that sector? These are very complicated issues, but we need some enlightenment to move forward..Rob Hersov (30:37.761):And don't forget about social grants. That's like handing out drugs to the population. They become reliant on the grants. How do we afford that going forward?.Alec Hogg (30:45.79):Yeah, but the grants are minimal. It's only 1,300 rand a month—it's not enough to keep anyone. Seventeen million people are on them. But a lot of them are vulnerable. Kids, especially. That's a whole separate argument..Gerhard Papenfus (30:48.833):You're right..Rob Hersov (30:52.119):How many people, Alec?.Alec Hogg (31:07.004):Seventeen million..Rob Hersov (31:16.543):Why are they vulnerable? They're vulnerable because we don't have economic growth..Alec Hogg (31:16.543):And they don't have parents. There are societal issues, but where do they come from? Is it from apartheid? Or is it from something else? Let's put that aside for now..Rob Hersov (31:16.543):It's from 30 years of incompetence by the ANC..Alec Hogg (31:16.543):That's another story..Alec Hogg (41:23.863):Okay. Well, the counter-argument, the counterforce is education. The counterforce is the distribution of information. The counterforce is what people like you do in a program like this. Hey guys, listen to these people. Look at the facts. Look around you and make your voice heard. Politicians do not act unless they are forced to. They are the epitome of the comfortable status quo. It's only when people get pissed off and say, "We don't want to see what happened in Newcastle. We don't want this to repeat itself around the country," that action happens. Back up your ideas. We understand why these things have happened. That is a counterforce. And you know, there is nothing so powerful as the voice that is saying, "We are saying it." You're saying it every day. Gerhard is saying it. There are many like you, Rob. They might not have the voice or the communication skills that you do, but these conversations are not just happening here. They're being held in many households, businesses, and forums around the country. I'll give you a good example: GG Alcock, earlier this week, I was asking him how the foreign spaza shop owners have reacted to this incompetence. I mean, that is breathtaking incompetence by the government. They say, "We're going to fix the poisoned food," but they have absolutely nothing to do with spaza shop ownership. So what have they done? GG says they all just bribe the local officials, and they all get registered. It's another really dumb idea from a very out-of-touch government. And at some point, out-of-touch governments—particularly in this day and age—are ejected by a population that knows better. We keep saying education, education. South Africans are incredibly well-educated when you look at how they consume information through various channels. You don't need to go to school anymore to get that information. But anyway, you've got me on my hobby horse now, I've taken up enough time. What are your thoughts on this?.Gerhard Papenfus (43:40.737):So, what are you going to do? Just on the DA: The DA became part of this government, and it seems to me that this ridiculous transformation has accelerated since then. What has the Deputy Minister of Trade and Industry done about this? I don't know whether they have a voice, but it seems to me that the DA's participation in the government of national unity (GNU) has given the ANC a free pass to do whatever they want. I don't see them stopping anything. The judgment is out on BEE. If they stop that for a bit, I'm not sure we'll see it. But here's the thing: What do we do? When the DA had to make the decision to participate in the GNU or not, was it driven by fear, or was it a rational decision? People say, "Yes, but immediately there would have been a huge decline." So here's my question: Do we prefer a quick decline or a very slow decline? Sometimes, it's better to fall hard and quick than to fall over 10 years, because in 10 years, we won't have anything to offer in resistance. We have it now. In 10 years, we won't. And I'm very concerned about this, because I don't know what the DA is doing. I just don't know. I don't see it. Maybe in the quiet backrooms, they have some influence, but I don't see it in the area in which I, and my constituency, operate. We don't see a slowing down of race-based, destructive transformation. We see an acceleration of it..Gerhard Papenfus (45:51.585):And my question is to the DA: What are you doing? And if you are doing something, please tell us about it..Rob Hersov (46:00.511):Alec, the GNU seems to me to have one role only: It's not about economic growth, fixing the economy, attracting foreign direct investment, or improving productivity. It has one role only—to make sure MK doesn't get into power, which means it's going absolutely nowhere. And Gerhard's right. BEE is being pushed forward, NHI is still being pushed forward, and these moronic bills are a free pass for the ANC to just continue with its destructive RET and NDR nonsense. And you say the voters aren't stupid. The voters are going to get fed up. I disagree. If you combine the ANC's vote, MK's vote, and the EFF's vote, it's two-thirds of the country. Was there really a cry for change in the recent national election? No, it was just the moving of deck chairs on the Titanic again. If you add the ANC, MK, and EFF votes, you get to 66% or 67%, which means two-thirds of this country still believe in idiotic socialist nonsense and race-based policies. The ANC has had 30 years to do things in this country, and on every metric, we've gone backwards. So guess what? I don't think we're going to end up like Argentina. We'd be lucky to be in Argentina. I think we're more likely to end up like Venezuela. This thing is going to fall over. Where's the hope?.Alec Hogg (47:35.146):How do you change that? How do you change that? How do you, Rob Hersov, who loves South Africa and lives here with his family, change that trajectory? There's a question for you..Rob Hersov (47:47.287):To the DA, I've got to stop being a bunch of cowards..Alec Hogg (47:49.172):No, no, no. How do you, Rob Hersov, change that?.Rob Hersov (47:52.663):I get everyone to throw their money behind Gayton McKenzie. He's the only guy big enough, tough enough, strong enough, and now popular enough to actually make the right decisions and take the right actions. He's a man of principle, he has no fear, and he needs a much bigger platform. And stop thinking Cyril's the solution. He doesn't want your money. He's told you that..Alec Hogg (48:08.832):But he doesn't want your money. He's told you that..Rob Hersov (48:17.387):Cyril is beyond pathetic. I'm not going to name names, but all the big businessmen in South Africa who have private meetings with Cyril all the time and come back saying, "He's our man." They are the useful idiots. Name the top 10 richest people in South Africa, and those are the names I'm talking about. They are the useful idiots. We need to create a crisis. I think the slow death of South Africa needs to be accelerated. If we don't, it's going to be the boiling frog scenario, as Gerhard said. I'm really sick of this situation..Alec Hogg (48:53.407):Two very interesting points on that. RW Johnson actually agreed with you when he wrote ahead of the election. He said it might not be a bad thing for the progressive forces, if you like, to get into power and completely mess things up. Then, we will recover. The second point on that is that just after the GNU was established, the rand strengthened to around 17 and even dropped below that against the US dollar. We're now above 19 to the US dollar. It's as though the initial euphoria is a bit like the "Ramaphoria," but on the other hand, it never, ever makes sense to destroy everything before you rebuild it. There's always hope. There's always human initiative that comes to the fore. I believe in that. I've always believed that human beings can surprise us on the upside, and in South Africa, we've been surprised on the upside many times before. But Gerhard, from your perspective, what are you, Gerhard Papenfus, doing? Rob Hersov is talking to people he knows. I love Rob's contributions because he breaks with his class—those very powerful, wealthy people. He tells it like it is. They don't like him for it. I can assure you, they really, really don't like someone who's roughing up the show or rattling the cage the way Rob does because they just want to keep making their money. From your side, Gerhard, what are you doing to make sure that—because we're going nowhere—we don't have those options? Most South Africans don't have the option to live anywhere else in the world. We don't want to, anyway. What are you doing to ensure that you can contribute to making this a better place?.Gerhard Papenfus (50:52.609):I've decided there are a few areas in which we can operate and make a difference. One of those is labor law. The government's interference in the relationship between employers and employees is a huge progressive action taken by this government from the outset. We operate there and help businesses. We are involved in approximately 250,000 interventions a year where we assist businesses. I want to mention something about the Employment Amendment Act, which was introduced on January 1st. It was supposed to be the Act, with all the quotas and regulations. We said to the government, "You can implement the Act, because we couldn't stop that. But if you implement the regulations—which give teeth to the Act—we will immediately take you to court." They didn't do that. So, we told them, "You can throw away the consultations that took place before January 25th, because they are useless." Apparently, they listened, and now they are going to consult again. We will consult, and we will do everything we can to influence this, because this is what we can do. We've been fighting in the metal engineering industry for 15 years, and we've made a lot of progress. You remember our discussions. We're still fighting this, and we've spent tens of millions on litigation, because that's the only thing we can do. We will take the employment equity issue all the way to the Constitutional Court. This is where we can make a difference..Gerhard Papenfus (53:01.981):We can delay things, and while delaying, we can influence. If it weren't for our actions in the steel industry, in the RBC, and other industries, there would have been many more job losses. But here's what I tell people: We all have one life. Some people can't invest elsewhere, but influence the area in which you live. Don't be apathetic. Get involved as much as possible and make a difference. Apathetic people are the biggest issue in South Africa. I don't know why it is, but people aren't involved. Let me give you an example. There are employers today who don't know why the price of steel is so high. How can they not know? But they don't know. Why? Because they don't read. I don't know what they do, except follow nonsense on social media. But how can you not know? Be involved. Influence your area. Make a difference. You've got to make a difference..Alec Hogg (54:52.219):You know, my family moved to Hermanus two years ago, and if only you could take the civic activism that happens in Hermanus and implant it everywhere else in the country, you'd have the best-run municipalities. People care here. They have town meetings, and 700 people show up. I can't imagine how few would bother in Johannesburg. Very good point. There are people like you, like Wayne Duvenage and others in the service industries, who are making a huge difference. Rob, that's what keeps me positive. That's what keeps me believing that South Africa has just lost its way for a while. You know, the universe will eventually address the unfairness. I was reading in Richard Tedlow's book Giants of Enterprise, where he gives biographies of seven great American entrepreneurs. He says, "A great entrepreneur looks at the world as though it is always fair. It's going to be fair. And even though for a while it's unfair, the universe will realign and repay you. Karma will come back with a vengeance." That's what keeps me going in this world we live in now, despite all the stupidity and incompetence around me. Sometimes it's just ignorance. And I guess from what you've said, you are going to encourage people to support Gayton McKenzie. He's the guy you've put your support behind. Gerhard, on his side, has said he's looking at how he can assist with labor regulations. But I'll ask you one final question to wrap up, Rob. The DA is supported by lots of people who have a stake in the status quo. A lot of wealthy people give money to the DA, and we know that the piper plays the tune of those who pay him. Given what you've said today, is this some of what we are seeing now with the government of national unity, which there was great excitement about at the time, but the delivery has not occurred, and the DA has not pulled out of it despite the lack of delivery? Or is the DA being the responsible adult in the room, biding its time until it can make an impact?.Rob Hersov (57:35.659):The DA has some very good people in its ranks: Leon Schreiber, Andrew Whitfield, and Helen Zille, the best of all. But I think the DA is heavily compromised right now, and it's best expressed in the most cowardly response I've ever heard on the Israel issue, where John Steenhuisen said, "We need to wait for the ICJ's decision, and these international institutions will opine." Gayton McKenzie said, "Nonsense." If you want to see a white man dance, look at this guy just dancing with his pathetic response. We're going to kick John to the curb and bring Helen back in. She's got a spine, a steel will, and a heart to say the right things and do the right things. She should team up with Gayton and run this country. I'm here because I love this country, and I want it to succeed. I'll do whatever is required, but there's no way I want my kids to be based in this country under this current government or the next one. They should be in America..Alec Hogg (58:40.387):Rob Hersov, capitalist activist, and Gerhard Papenfus, CEO of the National Employers Association of South Africa (NIASA). I'm Alec Hogg from BizNews.com. Thanks for being with us. Until the next time, cheerio..Read also:.🔒 RW Johnson: Why BELA Bill is an existential threat to GNU as Friday's deadline loomsCorion, Bacher's 2025 investment outlook: Stability over risk, and diversification is keyBizNews Briefing: Steenhuisen v/s Trollip; Alcock on Spaza poisoned food; Bacher on 2025 outlook

Fire the GNU – Rob Hersov, Gerhard Papenfus explain why SA (still) isn’t working

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