Ian Cameron: Police Capture and State involvement - Cyril fails to draw the line

President Cyril Ramaphosa has missed a “golden opportunity to draw the line in the sand” with regards to organised crime. So says Democratic Alliance (DA) Spokesperson on Police, Ian Cameron, in his reaction to the President’s appointment of a Commmissioner of Inquiry to investigate allegations of links between the underworld and the police and politicians. “For us to reach this level of criminality and specifically with regards to organised crime, the only way to get there is essentially through serious State involvement, specific stakeholders in government playing a role to facilitate organised criminal activity…. So, the frustrated look on the President's face last night or the so-called surprise of, wow, is this happening? It's absolute nonsense. They've known about it for so long. And it's because a decision was never made, because there wasn't any form of backbone to actually resolve the issue that we are in the position that we are in now.” Meanwhile there is a “massive information war” raging. “…We mustn't forget that this isn't just a matter of good versus evil. There are significant factional battles inside the South African Police Service, the majority of it being linked to some form or another of politics…,” he adds.

Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.

Support South Africa’s bastion of independent journalism, offering balanced insights on investments, business, and the political economy, by joining BizNews Premium. Register here.

If you prefer WhatsApp for updates, sign up to the BizNews channel here.

The auditorium doors will open for BNIC#2 on 10 September 2025 in Hermanus. For more information and tickets, click here.

Watch here

Listen here

Edited transcript of the interview

Chris Steyn (00:01.903)

Another Commission of Inquiry and a Police Minister on special leave. That was what President Cyril Ramaphosa left the nation with last night. Let's get reaction from the Democratic Alliance spokesperson on Police, Ian Cameron. Morning, Ian.

Ian Cameron (00:21.442)

Good morning, Chris. Very, very disappointing start to the week.

Chris Steyn (00:25.923)

Indeed. What do you say?

Ian Cameron (00:30.926)

So I think the President essentially missed the golden opportunity last night to draw the line in the sand with organised crime. 

Now as context, we must understand, in my opinion, police capture is real in South Africa. There's no doubt. The reason I say that is as follows. If you look at the last report from the Global Initiative Against Transnational Organised Crime, it indicated that South Africa ranks seventh globally in terms of criminality. And that has moved from being 19th in 2021 to seventh globally in a space of what, four years? And we've got a criminality score in the country of 7.18 out of 10. 

For us to reach this level of criminality and specifically with regards to organised crime, the only way to get there is essentially through serious state involvement, specific stakeholders in government playing a role to facilitate organised criminal activity. 

We are also now the third highest ranked country in Africa with regards to criminality and ahead of us is only the DRC and of course Nigeria. So, I mean, that paints the picture. 

And if we then look at the President's response last night, so extremely underwhelming. So something that really bothers me of last night that I'm still trying to realise whether he…

Ian Cameron (02:55.276)

…he actually meant what he said was that the commission that he appoints would determine who would be suspended or not in the relevant institutions. 

Now, obviously we know that the President doesn't, for example, have the power to suspend the Provincial Commissioner or Deputy National Commissioner or anyone for that matter within the South African Police Service apart from, I guess, firing a national commissioner or obviously, as we've seen now with the Minister being placed on special leave. But for goodness sake, I mean, take the country into confidence and say, I've spoken with the National Commissioner and we have jointly decided to suspend X, Y and Z. We're taking the following internal disciplinary steps. And while we're doing that, we're doing a criminal investigation into X, Y and Z. 

But, you know, it has become, it has become, I wouldn't say apparent, I guess it's what we expected that we just kick for the sideline again. Many more questions regarding it, but I...I honestly think that we expected so much more. Maybe we're expecting too much.

Chris Steyn (04:01.883)

But exactly what does special leave mean? Is he just going to be on holiday now?

Ian Cameron (04:07.598)

Well, this is the thing, right? Because now essentially it means that we are continuing to pay one minister his full salary. He's going on special leave for however long it takes. I mean, they can speak about three months for a preliminary report and then six months for a full report. But the point is with all the perks, everything, you are still actually minister. What guarantee do we have that there's no involvement? How do we have a guarantee? And how can we trust that there won't be any form of involvement in what the investigations may be? 

Now, remember, the majority of what has been said links to organised crime. And I go back to what I said in the beginning. If it links to organised crime, senior government officials, especially when it's organised crime on this level, must somehow be involved. So I don't for one moment think that there’s... let's say, a solid group of honest individuals that are running the show. There may be good people amongst the group running the show, but for it to have gotten this far indicates a significant, complicit part or role played in organised crime. 

Now we're paying one minister his full salary, we're continuing with that, apart from speaking about interference and everything, and we're appointing another.

I think in terms of acting Minister Cachalia's appointment, I can't fault him personally. I mean, if you look at his track record in terms of exposure to the public safety space, experience in terms of the law, academically too, he's got a vast background. So I don't think in terms of qualification, there's a question mark to me.

But you can imagine it may also be very unfair to the individual to expect that person to, I don't know, is the expectation just to keep the seat warm? Is the expectation to turn the ship? I'm not so sure. Needless to say, we're paying two ministers for the work of one. And I do not have the trust in the current system that we can actually expect there to be no influence of any kind. I think...

Ian Cameron (06:31.96)

You know Chris, it also leads me to the idea that this is a risk for potential instability within the South African Police Service. There is no clear action in terms of disciplinary steps against all the implicated individuals. 

We saw weeks ago that certain Crime Intelligence senior members were arrested. We all remember that. But apart from that, and apart from some of them being moved to different divisions for the time being, I'm not aware of any real disciplinary action or even criminal action being taken against people. 

And I'm also not sure what the status of the investigations are that General Mkhwanazi spoke of. We don't know what the status of the dockets from the Political Murders Task Team is at the moment. So, yeah, I'm concerned to say the least.

Chris Steyn (07:20.151)

Meanwhile, your party, the Democratic Alliance, has laid criminal charges against the Police Minister. Just detail that for us please.

Ian Cameron (07:29.432)

Sure, so I'm not directly involved with that. Obviously, I have to make sure that I split the matter between party and State. So I deliberately stood away for that to stay as objective as I possibly can….And the three of them led this process of laying fraud charges regarding the fact that the minister allegedly lied to Parliament when he said he had no contact with Brown Mogotsi or that they weren't associates rather. And then later on made a statement saying they're not associates, but he's an old comrade and so on. 

I think unfortunately, was so much double speak last week and we've seen so many different people. And I think you and I spoke about it already is that there was no consolidated communication effort from the South African Police Service. I think the most level-headed communication we saw after what General Mkhawanzi said was that of the National Commissioner. But that was the only real proper official SAPScommunication that we saw. You know, the Minister was speaking on his own releasing statements. We saw the Deputy National Commissioner speaking on his own, defending himself all over the media. Instead of saying, we need to regroup, whether there are differences or not, you are causing significant damage to the integrity of the institution. And there's very little integrity left at the current rate. So we need to guard that at all costs.

Chris Steyn (09:15.121)

How will the Parliamentary inquiry go forward in the meantime? How long is that going to take ,Ian?

Ian Cameron (09:21.954)

Sure, so we are meeting as the two joint committees on Wednesday, that is the Portfolio Committee on police, along with the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development. We will then determine what the best remedies are together as committees. We have to get everyone's input. And once we've done that, we will make an official announcement. Obviously, there will be some form of an inquiry, whether joint or within specific committees.

There could be, you know, I've already seen speak of an ad hoc committee. There are many different options. 

I personally think a Parliamentary inquiry would likely be one that can start quite quickly. It is one that could show some kind of result quite quickly. And there's no reason for it not to run concurrently. There's nothing that prevents us from doing that. 

So as things stand now, we will go ahead with some form or another of inquiry and again after Wednesday's joint public committee meeting we will make an official announcement on exactly the way forward. We will also give an indication of the terms of reference and we will also obviously indicate the time frame for such an investigation.

Chris Steyn (10:41.359)

Meanwhile, General Mkhwanzi has to live with death threats and as a whistleblower has to face character assassination attempts. What do you say, Ian?

Ian Cameron (10:56.28)

Yeah, so I mean, unfortunately, that's the space that we're in. There's a massive information war going on and social media is playing a toxic role in that, regardless of whether it's against or pro certain entities, whether it's pro-Mkhwanazi or pro-Minister Mxchunu. Regardless, there's a total and utter information war. We mustn't forget that this isn't just a matter of good versus evil. There are significant factional battles inside the South African Police Service, the majority of it being linked to some form or another of politics. 

In history, we've seen the link to ANC politics specifically, and more specifically with regards to Crime Intelligence and the use of the Secret Service Fund. So there's a lot at stake here. 

And I think what this has forced...in a certain way and that's why I also think the President missed the opportunity. It's forced it to come to the fore. It's forced it for a plaster to be ripped off and now we've got to deal with it. 

I just think that it's typical, I can't remember the exact saying, but what is it about when the dog catches the bus or something? You know, last night we could have actually caught the bus. Well, technically we have, but now we just don't know what to do with it.

And I think that's the crux of it. Nevertheless, I think that civil society needs to play a massive role in this. 

I think this is going to overshadow the so-called National Dialogue, which in my opinion is a waste of time. We had a National Dialogue during the election last year. The election said more than enough. And tongue-in-cheek, people said you wanted a National Dialogue. General Mkhwanazi gave a National Dialogue at zero cost.

But in terms of just whistleblower protection and threats, it's a huge problem in South Africa. I mean, there are scores of people that have been killed, that have been threatened. I consider myself in some cases previously having played that role from outside a so-called State institution. But even on the inside, the risks are significant. And I think that…

Ian Cameron (13:14.53)

…you know, what is, I guess, positive in a certain sense is that there are people involved in this thing that have so much public support that they have a certain degree of protection, if that makes sense. 

But nevertheless, it should never have gotten this far. The fact that we need to even speak about whistleblower protection after the fact of so many having been killed before is an indictment, not only on the South African Police Service and the NPA, but it certainly is also an indictment on the state as a whole.

Chris Steyn (13:50.513)

And as somebody who has reported on crime and the South African police for decades, I've been inundated this week with allegations from various sources and parties. And it just seems to me that the police service has never been in such a bad state as it is now. What do you say?

Ian Cameron (14:15.918)

Yeah, well, I think it is because of too many inquiries with too little results, whether it's called, or we should rather say commissions with too little results. You'd remember the Khayelitsha Commission, which was completely focused on something else, but little or nothing to show from what was implemented on that. Zondo Commission, we can go look at the Marikana process after what happened there. Yes, the National Commissioner was fired, but who was held accountable on the inside of SAPS for things having gone that far. How many station commanders were held accountable or provincial commissioners were fired or district commissioners? You know, I can go through the list. What was done in terms of preventative measures? 

When we go look at the 2021 riots, nothing has changed in Crime Intelligence or police capacity with regards to handling that type of unrest. 

And if there's something that could cause round two of that, it is this. This is a perfect storm for something like this and especially for more populist aligned groups or organisations or parties to push that specific agenda. 

I must say that I also think that because of this tactic of just kicking for the sideline like it felt last night, we again have the situation where when we looked at the police more than a decade ago with the Richard Mdluli era. His sons are still in the police. There are many of the appointments that he made in those years that are still in the police. 

So, you know, the frustrated look on the President's face last night or the so-called surprise of, wow, is this happening? It's absolute nonsense. They've known about it for so long. And it's because a decision was never made, because there wasn't any form of backbone to actually resolve the issue that we are in the position that we are in now. 

And the worst part is, and again, last night I spoke to a journalist that repeated the saying of when elephants fight, the grass suffers most. And that is exactly what is happening in this situation. Essentially, it comes down to ordinary and especially the poorest of poor in South Africa that will suffer the most because of a few ignorant politically connected individuals that have destroyed the...

Ian Cameron (16:35.628)

…the criminal justice system and literally brought it to its knees. 

I'm afraid that if we don't use other remedies aside from a commission, again, I'm not going to discredit a commission before it's started. And I think we need to give credit to a judge, the judge that has been appointed, Judge Madlanga. And I think we must always be objective and fair. But the commission is only as good as its consequences.

Chris Steyn (17:03.001)

I mean, as somebody posted last night, after listing all the commissions of inquiry there have been and said, if commissions of inquiry could have solved South Africa's problems, then we would have none.

Ian Cameron (17:19.296)

Absolutely. And again, the perception is always created that we need to just go and investigate and do a commission. But if we just enforce the regulations and legislation that we have to our disposal properly and people just work hard, just that, then we'd be in a totally different situation. But it's because of political and self-enrichment that we are in this position.

The issue regarding, and my goodness, let me not get the name wrong again, but the issue regarding Vusi or Kat Matlala is a perfect example. There's no way that someone could have gained the access to senior individuals in the police and in different institutions, different parts of government, without senior people knowing. If you had decent State Security, if you had decent intelligence services, a lot of that could have been proactively prevented. 

So that tells you that Police Capture is a thing. And we cannot shy away from that. But that, again, as I always say, Chris, I'm not discrediting the good police members out there working very, very hard. But that the police, to a large extent, has lost control of the fight against especially organised crime is a fact.

Chris Steyn (18:45.105)

So what is it going to take? A change in political leadership?

Ian Cameron (18:51.234)

I think obviously I'm biased and if I put my DA hat on, then the bias is very strong. But I can tell you that if the DA were in more control of this, things would look significantly different. We can bring good governance to the table. That being said, that it's not just political change, but it's actual consequence management and going back in the past and linking all of these rotten apples and removing them from the system. 

I've got no doubt that over a space of two decades, in terms of who the kingpins are, they're likely the same kingpins. So it's not like there's a new kingpin born every day. Are there a lot of kingpins? Sure. But I can tell you that it's decade after decade and that they just change the image on face value. But in the back end, it's still the same operators doing their thing.

There's no doubt as well, and again, we come back to the Zondo Commission. I mean, the many people implicated there are now chairs in committees in Parliament or ministers in Cabinet. I mean, it not only is embarrassing, but it's an indictment on government as a whole, and I guess the President too. 

So it is extremely frustrating. I also don't understand with regards to what the president said last night, that why, why wouldn't he go into more detail? And I guess it's a broader debate that we can have, but why wouldn't they explain and take the public into confidence and be more transparent about what exactly the processes are that will be zoomed in on? I mean, what he said last night about the commission, I could have pulled that off chat GPT. There's nothing unique about that. I think there's a lot more detail that could have been given. 

The last thing, Chris, that I think just think it's important to highlight is that, and this is my opinion and people may differ from me, I refuse to choose sides in this thing. And I think we must emphasise that. I think that we need to allow the relevant, whether it's an inquiry or a commission or both, whatever else may come to the fore, to take its process, take its course…

Ian Cameron (21:16.82)

…and that due process must follow. We cannot allow for one moment for any of us to choose sides and drive a specific agenda. I think that would cause far more harm to this issue. And I think especially in terms of the so-called Information War that we are in, we need to be cautious of not predetermining what the outcome of such an investigation would be.

Chris Steyn (21:46.929)

Somebody remarked there are no sides, only players. So we don't know who's playing whom, do we? Thank you. That was Ian Cameron, the Democratic Alliance spokesperson on Police, commenting on President Cyril announcing yet another Commission of Inquiry. I'm Chris Steyn. Thank you, Ian.

Ian Cameron (21:51.608)

Amen.

Ian Cameron (22:09.646)

Thank you, Chris.