Corruption and the state – stop passing the buck
Talking about corruption is tricky. Look at the interview below. When a government official is asked about the issue, he or she is quick to say that it takes two to tango and that the private sector is culpable. When a private sector corruption investigator is asked about the issue, he or she is quick to say that government doesn't prosecute and so investigation is of little use. And everyone agrees that active citizens must play a role.
Now, all of these points are true. Yes, the private sector is implicated in tender irregularities and so on. Yes, citizens must pull their weight. But I think that pointing the finger at citizens and businesspeople really obscures a crucial point, and that is that, ultimately, it is up to the law and the justice system to actually punish the corrupt. Citizens can report, businesspeople can investigate and complain, but if the state doesn't have the will and capacity to prosecute, it's all for nothing. It's frustrating, to me, to listen to a state official avoid the issue the way Phumla Williams does in this interview – she's right, private companies and citizens have a role to play. But honestly, if the government isn't even going to do something about the gross corruption at the SABC, a state-owned enterprise, what exactly are citizens supposed to do? – FD
ALEC HOGG: According to South Africa's Public Protector, corruption has reached crisis proportions in South Africa. As we discuss corruption at government and business level, we're joined by Phumla Williams who is acting CEO of the Government's Communication Services, and Dave Loxton who is the Director in the Forensics business at ENSafrica. Phumla, let's kick off with perhaps bringing forward what Cynthia Schoeman was saying about the Public Protector. She brings out a report on the SABC – a national broadcaster – and clearly, there's corruption if somebody gives themselves three salary increases and doesn't even have a Matric, but they forged the certificate. Yet, they're impervious to any kind of issue. This is part of government. It's part of the state. How do we start 'talking corruption' when we have such an obvious example, or is there another side to that story?
PHUMLA WILLIAMS: Thank you very much Alec, and if you'll allow me, I'll just move a bit on the SABC. I think the reason we're quite excited that we start engaging on the issue of corruption is that I think we tend to look at it from the government's perspective. I think however, that corruption is much broader than just government. It's a societal problem, because it's not unheard of hearing somebody saying 'I was stopped by a traffic cop for crossing the line. I paid a bribe', so it's two people involved. It's also not unheard of hearing a student saying that 'I paid my fellow colleague to do my assignment'. The issue of corruption is therefore much broader than that. Bringing it back to government…I'm a public servant, I'm not corrupt, and I can say it proudly that I'm not corrupt. We're talking about one-point-three million public servants and I can say with confidence that not all one-point-three public servants are corrupt. However…yes, there is a problem in a similar way that it is a societal problem. The issue is how do we deal with it? Yes, you will have other people saying we're not doing enough, but I want to start by saying we have institutions, which we've put in place. The Public Protector is one of them. The Auditor-General is one of them. The Anti-corruption Task Team is one of them. The National Anti-Corruption hotline is one of them. Whether we are doing anything about it…yes, we are doing something about it. We have statistics. I think the Justice and Corruption Ministers had a briefing around June where they were illustrating some of the statistics of how many people have been arrested and how many have been prosecuted. The question that is often asked…'it's that it's not enough. They have not been sacked'.
ALEC HOGG: No, but the point is Phumla, let's cut all of that nonsense now. At the bottom level with the traffic cops, we catch a traffic cop accepting the bribe, and we put him in jail. We know that happens – and please God, we as a society of active citizens start doing more about that – but when it gets to powerful people, nothing happens – time and time again. We have Nkandla. We know what happened at Nkandla. Two hundred million of our money, taxpayers' money, was spent frivolously: nothing has happened as a consequence. We have a very specific example I asked you about here. Our hero, Madonsela, investigates the SABC and nothing… I'm not attacking you. I'm saying, as active citizens in this country, how do we make these things…how do we make the Public Protector matter?
PHUMLA WILLIAMS: The reason I say I'm staying away from the SABC is that I think there is a process. The Minister did say the board has to deliberate on it. Coming back to Nkandla, I also want to dispute the fact that nothing is being done. In December, the Cabinet took a decision that that report should be released, and there is an SIU proclamation that has been put in place wherein the wrongdoing that possibly could have happened during that whole Nkandla saga, is going to be happening. Therefore, we didn't dispute it. We did say that there is a procurement that went wrong and clearly, some of the people who may have actually flouted the rules will actually face the full might of the law. We have not shoved that under the carpet, so I do dispute it when you say that we're doing nothing about it.
ALEC HOGG: I'm questioning it.
PHUMLA WILLIAMS: Let's wait and see whether the SIU does complete the process, but that process is still under investigation. It hasn't been completed.
ALEC HOGG: Yes, I'm not saying we're doing nothing about it. I'm saying let's do something about it. Let's work together and perhaps get the wheels of justice going a little quicker. Just to bring it to Dave – Gugu, I know you're dying to jump in here. It's a tough job that you have. Lawrence Moepi, one of your colleagues, is gunned down in the parking lot at SNG. Now, that's private sector corruption – to leave government for a while – and the ultimate price that he paid for being a good person.
DAVE LOXTON: Yes, as you say it's not an easy job. For the record, you've spoken about Lawrence… I don't think he was gunned down for what he was doing. I mustn't shy away from that. There obviously is a risk attached to the job we do. Putting the risk to one side, the point was made that there is corruption on both sides, private sector and government.
ALEC HOGG: I'm sorry, but you made quite a big statement there about Lawrence Moepi. Why was he gunned down then, if it wasn't because he was a forensic auditor? Was it something completely different?
DAVE LOXTON: It was something totally unrelated, yes. The point I was making is that there is corruption on both sides. For every bribe that is taken by a government official, there is a bribe paid by the private sector. I think, from where I sit at ENSafrica and our forensics team, our big frustration is trying to help, do our investigations, and the serious lack of skills we face in prosecutorial services and the justice system. Time and time again, you present a case on a plate, and it dies a natural death. That is enormously frustrating for anybody who plays in this space – in the investigation field – that we do what we can and then it dies a natural death, so there's not just a corruption problem. There's a skills problem. In many of the cases I've investigated, I've dealt with Chief Financial Officers in public institutions who, quite frankly, shouldn't have a job as a bookkeeper, but it's a Chief Financial Officer with hundreds of millions of rands worth of budget, and they should be a Chartered Accountant or at least, have strong accounting skills and have a Matric.
GUGULETHU MFUPHI: Why is there no cohesiveness between the public sector and the private sector to make sure that these people are brought to book, for lack of a better word?
DAVE LOXTON: It's a very good question. In fact, we've been offering our services. One of the points we're making to government is 'use guys like us. We have the skills in the private sector. My colleague and I at ENSafrica are ex-prosecutors. We would love to assist and if one can help the prosecutorial services, whether it's helping with prosecution or actually appearing in court ourselves' – that's the kind of offering we have made, and it's for government to then engage with us. We've engaged through Corruption Watch and institutions like that to say 'it's a collaborative effort'. Government, private sector, and people like ourselves need to work together because this is not just a government problem. Government has passed a legislation dealing with corruption and inherent in that legislation, is an acceptance that the private sector is also guilty.
ALEC HOGG: Of course, it's not just a government problem. It's the private sector that's bribing the government official. Have you accepted their offer? Can you bring more people from the private sector to help in this scourge?
PHUMLA WILLIAMS: Yes, I think Dave is correct to say in some cases…yes, there is a skills challenge within the public service and that is why the Minister of Public Service Administration has set up a whole drive, of tackling the issue of training within the public service. In terms of some of the skills that are outsourced, I will not be able to speak to the justice…how they deal with sourcing some of the… Obviously, you need some kind of quick intervention. The training, broadly, is medium to long-term but yes, there could be some inter-collaboration between the government and the private sector. I know for instance, that the Auditor-General…they do a lot of sharing of resources with the private sector. I cannot speak with confidence with the Minister of Justice. However, with the financial environment and the Auditor-General together with National Treasury: they have a lot of collaboration with the private sector in the work that they do. For instance, some of the deep investigations with the private sector…the National Treasury does engage their forensics from the private sector to assist with the investigation. Many of the investigations done in the past year have been done together with the assistance of the private sector together with this Anti-Corruption Task Team. Yes, there is a lot of collaboration.
ALEC HOGG: There is progress.
PHUMLA WILLIAMS: There is definitely progress and I think, from where we're sitting, we think that we are making progress. However, Alec, I think what one should say is putting in interventions and arresting cannot be a long-lasting solution to corruption that you are saying involves private sector. There are a number of companies that have gone under because of corruption. They've just quietly closed shop because they don't have resources to expose the corruption that bedevilled some of the small companies. What we are saying is that the discussion of corruption should be broader than just the public service. We're doing something about it, but I don't think we can tackle it if we don't tackle it at a societal level.
ALEC HOGG: Thanks Phumla, I think that's inspirational, and let's hope that tomorrow another very honest public servant – Pravin Gordhan – gives us a little bit more hope that we are going to be able to put this thing under control. We all know that the costs of corruption affect the poorest. The poorest are the ones who are hurt the most. That was Phumla Williams, acting CEO of the Government Communications Services and Dave Loxton, Director in the Forensics business at ENSafrica. We talked a lot about corruption today, Gugu.
GUGULETHU MFUPHI: A lot about corruption – it does call for us to be active citizens as well. I'll be watching you, Alec.
ALEC HOGG: Yes, but I signed up. I went to one of those Bobby Godsell talks and he handed out documents afterwards to say 'sign up as an active citizen', and I have. I haven't heard anything yet, not a word has come back, and that was a few months ago.
PHUMLA WILLIAMS: Let me tell you something, Alec. If you are stopped by a traffic cop, refuse to bribe. If you get to a queue and somebody says he wants to jump the queue, refuse to do that. I think we can do so much as citizens. I have a friend who wanted to get a permit from Home Affairs and he was saying 'somebody said I must pay R25.00'. I said 'refuse', go and do it and come back to me.
ALEC HOGG: And we have telephones, and that's the big point. We each have a cellphone. Take a photograph, send it on to us here at CNBC Africa, and we'll make sure that it gets to the right people.