Can't say we haven't been warned bribery and corruption is on the rise in South Africa. Triggered by a President who defends $20m of taxpayer's funds being used for a "security upgrade" on his private residence, perceptions of widespread abuse has never been higher. Now we have the first indication of how far the country has fallen. EY's authoritative worldwide biennial Global Fraud survey previously had 67% of South African executives saying bribery and corruption is widespread here. That has now risen to 78% – putting SA third worst of 59 countries surveyed. Only Nigeria and Kenya rank worse (see table below transcript). As disturbing is that 10% of the 50 SA executives surveyed admitted they would be prepared to pay a cash bribe to get the business done. Two years ago it was just 2%. Add in those who would actually pay the bribe but never admit it, and it looks like SA's executive suite seems to be embracing a new policy. One of: if you can't beat them, join them. Madiba must be turning in his grave. – AH

ALEC HOGG: Disturbing levels of perceived fraud, bribery, and corruption across the world are being noted and despite the apparent global consensus that there is a significant threat posed by cybercrime, almost half of the respondents in an EY survey considered it to represent a fairly low risk. Joining us now for more is Sharon van Rooyen, who's Director for Fraud and Investigation, and Dispute Services at EY, here in Johannesburg. Sharon, before we go into this survey, over the weekend, EY had its World Entrepreneur of the Year. We were hoping Stephen Koseff would win, but it went to Mr Uday Kotak from India's Kotak Mahindra Bank. Do you guys still focus a lot of your attention on the entrepreneurial sector here in South Africa?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Absolutely, yes. As you can see from that award, there is definitely a serious focus on it and a serious drive in South Africa as well, to focus on entrepreneurs.

ALEC HOGG: Entrepreneurs are often the ones who are accused of perpetuating bribery and corruption. When you're below the radar…when you're starting a small business, maybe you have more of a propensity to pay someone off etcetera. Is that one of the reasons why you do this survey, to feel the temperature/what's happening?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: The reason that we do this survey – and as you are well aware, we do it every two years – is basically, to get a sense of what the country is feeling in terms of bribery, fraud and corruption, what the topical issues are, and what organisations are doing. It's a test. In addition, hopefully give some pointers on how they can actually address and mitigate these risks.

ALEC HOGG: Now give me some good news. 78% of South African executives now say there's a perception that bribery and corruption is widespread in this country. Please tell me that that's gone down from two years ago.

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: The last time we did the survey, 67% had that perception. It has unfortunately risen.

ALEC HOGG: We've gone from 67% to 78% in two years?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Yes.

ALEC HOGG: Is this 'Nkandla-driven'?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: I think if you take a step back to when the survey was conducted, it was conducted in November to February of this year. If you think about what was going on in the press – it could be public sector, it could be private sector, the cartels, the Competition Commission etcetera – I certainly think that what is in the media is a driving force. Most organisations are much more aware of what bribery and corruption is, so obviously they have a better perception or a better understand of what it would entail.

ALEC HOGG: Of the 2 700 executives around the world interviewed for this research, how many are in South Africa?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: In South Africa, it was 50.

ALEC HOGG: So in other words, of those 50, 40 of them said there's widespread corruption. Only four said there wasn't.

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: The perception is that there is widespread corruption. What is interesting though is if you ask them in the industry they operate in, only 20 percent of them believe that it impacts their industry.

ALEC HOGG: Oh, so their side of the fence is clean, but everybody else is corrupt. Is it perception and not reality, maybe?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Well, I think there's a bit of a perception gap between what is happening in their industry and what is happening in the country, but as I said to you, you also need to take into consideration what you see in the media, both in public and in the private sector. Obviously, that perception does create their reality.

ALEC HOGG: I just want to go back to what David Shapiro and I were talking about. A good friend of mine has just been to London. He went to see 20 institutions and the message was…he said they're not even polite anymore about not giving him money for a project in South Africa. They showed him the door and high bribery and corruption is a perception they have. Now, if locals are feeling exactly the same way, what do we do about this?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Well, as you also mentioned, we always want to say 'it's somebody else's problem', but in terms of organisations and in terms of being ethical etcetera, we have compliance programs in place, which we believe our companies are following. We think that that's it, and if you see the results of the survey, we have the basics. You can see it. South Africa's trend represents worldwide trends. You have Codes of Conduct in place. We have anti-bribery and corruption policies in place, so we tick all the right boxes. The point is if that's the basics, you have to take it further than that. You have to look positive. You have to stop with this compliance fatigue and start looking at new ideas on how to address it. You have to start doing risk assessments that are meaningful risk assessments. Wards need to start asking difficult questions. For example, 'what are we doing in terms of that?' Cybercrime, for example. Fifty percent of respondents – and it's not unique to South Africa it's global – think it's not a threat.

ALEC HOGG: Yes, but in South Africa you have more brutal and obvious issues around bribery and corruption. It's in the media all day…the pillaging of public resources etcetera. Cybercrime seems far away…..

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: The reality on the ground is that it's not. We are seeing more and more clients struggling with it.

We are seeing other surveys that suggest South Africa is probably in the top three in the world in terms of cybercrime.

ALEC HOGG: Why?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Obviously, criminals see the opportunities and the vulnerabilities in order to attack organisations.

ALEC HOGG: South Africa's in the top three in the world in cybercrime.

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Yes.

ALEC HOGG: I'd have thought that certainly, Nigeria would be ahead of us?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: No. In terms of results, South Africa is very high up and we are certainly seeing people asking us more and more. 'Are we vulnerable to attack? Have we been attacked?' We've seen episodes of hacking etcetera, so it is rather on the increase. What we are saying is 'yes, you need to deal with your traditional threats. Anti-bribery and corruption threats are not going to go away. In addition to that, as the world moves forward and IT is a focus, you need to be looking…

ALEC HOGG: You're a bundle of joy…. Already, you're telling us that from two out of three, it's now four out of five South Africans in business say there's widespread bribery and corruption. Nigeria's at 88 percent, so it's almost a lost cause, but South Africa's heading in that direction. What's going to stop it? What's going to turn it around?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Well, we need to get more involved.

ALEC HOGG: But we've been saying that for ages.

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Yes, but we need to get our own houses in order. If you have a look at the statistics as well in terms of the respondents that were surveyed…if you look back, these are senior management in the C-Suite, 10% have been offered a bribe. What concerns me most about this survey is that in the last survey, we asked 'what about unethical practices…what would you do under trying circumstances', and the cash payments was very low – 2%. It's risen to 10% this time around.

ALEC HOGG: Can you explain what that means?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: It means you're willing to give a cash payment in order to get work or something from another individual, government, or service provider – a contract – so you're paying cash for that. Previously only 2% said 'we would do it under trying circumstances'. That's risen to 10% who would offer a bribe.

ALEC HOGG: Wow, that 10% would admit that they'd bribe someone with cash… How many would actually?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Exactly.

ALEC HOGG: So we have 50 people in South Africa – executives or C-suites, as you say – these are the chaps in the corner office. Five of them admit 'yes, I'll pay a cash bribe'.

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Under certain circumstances…

ALEC HOGG: Of the other 45 who said 'no, they wouldn't', surely there would be a lie factor in that as well that would tell your surveyors. Do you have any understanding of what that would be?

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: Obviously, it's an anonymous survey. They don't know who is surveying. An independent firm does these survey results, so obviously; they are answering it in confidence.

ALEC HOGG: You ask me if I beat my wife, and if I did, I would probably say 'no, I don't' even if I did. That's why I'm trying to get to this lie factor. If five of them are brazen enough to say to you 'yes, we will bribe. Yes, we will pay cash bribes', how many of the others would do it too? (but tell you they don't)

SHARON VAN ROOYEN: There were other questions as well in terms of that, so some said that they might do that. Some said they might do other things. In other words, a large percentage said they wouldn't do anything at all.

ALEC HOGG: Drift. Russell Loubser spoke about it a little while ago in this studio and it seems like we're drifting in one direction. Sharon, thank you for putting those stats on the table. Hopefully, in two years' time, you can bring us much better news because we found a silver bullet to shoot all the criminals – all the corruptors.