A week after his first election as DA leader, Geordin Hill-Lewis had a queue of rivals telling him what to do. Herman Mashaba wanted Helen Zille out of the picture, Corné Mulder warned against any deal with the ANC, and Julius Malema's lawyers were threatening Zille with court. Speaking to Alec Hogg on the day the 14-day coalition clock started, Hill-Lewis refused to negotiate through the media, but he set out the range of deals on the table, said what the DA's donors want in return, and explained why he believes the party has broken through its glass ceiling with black voters. He also said an early national election was possible from next May, promised to back Zille "to the hilt" in any court fight with the EFF, and named the tests any new metro government would have to pass..Listen here.Edited transcript of the interview.Alec Hogg (00:02): He's been the DA's leader for seven months, and last week he got his first real report card. Cape Town outright; biggest party in Joburg, Tshwane, Ekurhuleni, Nelson Mandela Bay, but majorities in none of them. And then this week, Herman Mashaba told me he wants to work with the DA, but Helen Zille is a deal breaker. And then Corné Mulder yesterday told me any party going into coalition with the ANC would be... treason. That's what he called it. And then this morning, ActionSA's Athol Trollip told us that the DA must come courting. And now Julius Malema's lawyers want Helen Zille to retract, apologise or see them in court. She said no, I'll see you in court. Well, everyone's got a view on what the DA should do, but the buck stops with one man. Geordin Hill-Lewis, the leader of the party, joins us. Jeepers, Geordin, seven months is almost a lifetime. It feels like they have thrown you lots of challenges. I suppose let's start off with the obvious one. Does Helen stay? Does Helen go? Are you even considering what Herman Mashaba had to say?Geordin Hill-Lewis (01:15): Well, look, Alec, we have taken a firm stand that we are not going to negotiate these coalitions through the media. We negotiate them in negotiating rooms, in boardrooms, and we base it on principle, not on personality, and on the country that we are trying to build for the future and what's best for these cities and the people in them who voted for change and for improvement. So I'm really not going to respond to any of the provocations that you have mentioned from those other parties. I'm not going to respond to any provocations at all, because the point here is to get the best possible outcome for the people in those metros. And that is what I'm working on. But needless to say, to go back to your introduction, it has been a good week at the office for the DA. It's a wonderful result. Obviously we would have loved majority governments everywhere, but I think that's going to be increasingly a thing of the past, or a very, very rare thing in South Africa. I'm thrilled, of course, to have it here in this city where I govern, in Cape Town, now the only city in the country with a majority government. And how the wheel has turned. Twenty years ago, when Helen Zille was the mayor of Cape Town, it was the only hung council, the only hung metro in the city, excuse me, in the country, and there were seven solid ANC majority cities elsewhere. Now the tables are completely turned. This is the only majority and there are seven hung metros, with the DA leading in most of them. So I think it was a great result. And of course the most exciting part of it is the DA's tremendous growth among black voters. Now a bigger party among black voters even than the EFF... ...and a bigger party than several of the other smaller parties combined. So that was a tremendous, tremendous result for us and a great platform for our 2029 ambitions. Now we have to see if we can put together workable governments in these cities. We're not going to do so at any cost. We are in a strong position, with a leading party in these metros. There are lots of options on the table. And as I said, I'm afraid I'm not going to engage in responding to those provocations. We save those things for the negotiating boardrooms.Alec Hogg (03:40): It feels like the chit-chat is all about the drama. People want drama, they want excitement, but there's a heck of a lot more at stake here.Geordin Hill-Lewis (03:52): That's the thing, and that's what I want to focus on. These cities are shattered, they are broken, they have been brought low by years and years of bad government. And it is time for them to get a long and sustained period of good government that restores integrity and honesty to the public service, that brings an ethic of public service back to the public service, that looks after public finances properly. And that is the outcome that we are trying to achieve. Obviously personality is important in politics. I happen to think that Helen Zille is just a remarkable politician and one of the people most able to turn around broken governments or broken cities in South Africa. But there's an element of this as well, in which we have to say: what is the outcome that we want for the residents of Joburg? What is the outcome that the majority of those residents, or at least the plurality of those residents, have voted for? And make sure that we deliver that. So that's what we're working on all day long at the moment.Alec Hogg (05:08): I'm sure a lot of the residents of the various cities will be heartened by that, because you almost get the sense from the sensationalism that we're seeing, from the drama that's being created, that that's being forgotten: that the real story here has to be what is right for the people who voted for you. But I want to get back to you, and back to the congress seven months ago, we're seven months on. Is this the time when the tough decisions arise?Geordin Hill-Lewis (05:47): Look, this period of negotiations is obviously tough, and there's a lot of difficult judgement calls that have to be made over the coming two weeks. So yes, there will be tough decisions. But I've already faced, as I think you and I have discussed on this show, a couple of pretty tough decisions these last seven months. And I always try to go back to: what is the principle at stake here? What is the right thing to do from first principles? And then build my decision on that framework. Sometimes that takes me a while to think about and consider carefully from every angle. And that's why it's not helpful to engage in the kind of dramatic language and, as I say, the constant provocations that we're seeing in the media right now. It's not helpful. It doesn't lend itself to mature decision-making that's in the best interest of every South African. So that is the work that I'm trying to do behind the scenes right now. And it is furious work. It's proceeding furiously, but it is happening. And I think it at least has a reasonable prospect of ending well for the country. But negotiations are very unpredictable.Alec Hogg (07:09): You won Cape Town outright, and there were many who said that wasn't going to happen. Number one in four more metros. What was the biggest surprise to you?Geordin Hill-Lewis (07:21): Well, I think Cape Town exceeded our expectations. We were obviously going for an outright win. I didn't think that we'd get to 56.5 [percent]. We got there, and I'm thrilled with that outcome, really thrilled with that outcome. And I really want to say thank you to Cape Town residents, BizNews viewers and subscribers who supported us in Cape Town. I'm very grateful for that support. Then the other big surprise, I think, has to be Bloemfontein [Mangaung]. That was not on our bingo card, so to speak, for this election, but we ended up, across an entire metro, a large metro, one thousand nine hundred and something, twenty-something votes between us and the ANC. Literally neck and neck. An extraordinary result. And then, of course, the other one that wasn't on our bingo card was East London, which is Buffalo City Metro. We certainly had no expectation that we would be the largest party there, but it has been the ANC's kind of heartland, or last redoubt, for the longest time. And even there they lost their majority, and now it is a hung council and they require a coalition there. So I think those two metros were a big surprise. The Gauteng metros are largely according to our expectations, and so we expected difficult negotiations there, and we have difficult negotiations. And then again, it was always our ambition to build our electoral coalition, our support base, make it bigger, broader, wider, more diverse, and that is exactly what's happened. The extent to which it has happened in this election was a very pleasant and pleasing surprise. And I'm really proud of the fact that we are now the political party in South Africa that can say: urban, young, unemployed township residents from Mfuleni or Soweto vote for the DA. Soccer moms from Sandton or Constantia vote for the DA. Farmers from the Free State vote for the DA. Residents of Die Moot, in Tshwane, they vote for the DA. And we have this broad base now across the country, which is very, very pleasing. And it is the best possible platform for 2029.Alec Hogg (09:59): Why does it have to be 2029? Why can't it be earlier? I know you can't have it till May next year, but why can't it be earlier?Geordin Hill-Lewis (10:01): Well, it doesn't, in fact. It doesn't. No, it can be. It can be. The Constitution is clear that it can be after May next year. And that's certainly something to consider. We must look at that very carefully after May.Alec Hogg (10:26): And your message... or rather, what you interpret the message that voters have sent to be. I've had some interesting feedback asking various political leaders what they think the message was. How does Geordin Hill-Lewis read it?Geordin Hill-Lewis (10:44): I think the message from voters is incredibly simple. It is a message of enormous frustration that everything in South Africa's major cities, with the exception of Cape Town, everything is broken. It doesn't work. Water is broken, electricity systems are broken, billing systems are broken, roads and traffic lights are broken, and people are really, really tired of that. They are paying their contributions and nothing is working, and they see vast corruption, as we see being exposed at the Madlanga Commission and elsewhere. That is metro-based corruption. So state capture has kind of shifted. I'm not sure that it's entirely ended at those other levels of government either, but it has certainly shifted into these metros in the last decade, and people are aware of that. And people are really, really tired of that. So I think South Africans actually want some fairly simple but very powerful things. They want their cities to work. They want them to offer better opportunity at getting a better life over time. They want integrity in government. And they are fully entitled to demand that. And I think that's the most powerful message. There may be a number of other tributaries that flow into that river. But that river that has completely swamped the ANC in this election is mainly deep frustration that public services have, by and large, all reached a point of crisis in South Africa under very poor management.Alec Hogg (12:29): I guess you could call it gatvol. However, another suggestion... well, Rob Hersov five years ago said "voetsek ANC", another bad word.Geordin Hill-Lewis (12:32): Yeah, I wasn't going to use that word, but you're welcome to.Alec Hogg: Is that another message that the electorate have sent?Geordin Hill-Lewis (12:48): Well, there's lots of coalition options on the table, Alec. So I actually don't want to spend too much time bad-mouthing other parties. I think that voters have sent a clear signal for change at the top leadership in the mayor's office, that change is required, because everything rises and falls on leadership. You've got to have the right leader in place so that the organisation can fall in line and start to up its standards and stand for something better. So I think that's the message that voters have clearly sent.Alec Hogg (13:29): Corné Mulder had some interesting things to say yesterday, but he says the best proposal would be the DA, ActionSA and the Freedom Front [Plus], obviously, getting together, and together you could run all three of the Gauteng metros. Now, you've said it before, and I'm not going to bore you with another question on that side, but what is your preferred model? Is it fewer parties, more parties, the right parties? Or a mixture, depending on the individual requirements that you're faced with there?Geordin Hill-Lewis (14:09): Let me just say that I think there is a powerful case to be made that the DA with 25%, [ActionSA] with just under 6%, is already 31% of the electorate. It would be the largest kind of block of votes in the electorate. So there's a powerful case to be made for that. But it all depends on whether we can find one another in relation to the demands being made, our requirements for negotiations and what we want out of them, and various other parties' requirements and what they want out of them. So I really hope that in the coming two weeks... the clock starts today, by the way, at the time that you and I are talking. I don't know when this will be published, but at the time that you and I are talking, the Gazette is being published with the election results, which means that the clock starts. And so the clock is ticking, and we must use these two weeks to find each other. And I don't think that the online kind of insults and emotional outbursts and so on help at all. I don't think it takes us any further. I'm not sure what the purpose of it is. But it's not what we're going to engage in. We're going to engage in mature, future-focused negotiations with the public front of mind.Alec Hogg (15:50): Well, it's Wednesday afternoon, the 11th of November, Armistice Day, as you're showing us and reminding us. So that's 14 days from here. Thanks for explaining that. There is a lot of confusion about when the two weeks are. It doesn't feel like a lot of time, but what happens in those negotiations? You're in the team, you're not leading it, Ashor Sarupen's leading it. But do you keep quiet? Do you reflect more? How does it...Geordin Hill-Lewis (16:23): No, I'm spending a lot of time thinking. I'm not in the day-to-day discussions, but that is giving me some time to think. And of course that team is feeding back to me several times a day with how all the discussions are going with the various parties. And we're talking through scenarios, we're writing copious notes and documents, and working through those together as a team, and working on different models, what some of our negotiating partners like to call modalities. But essentially, what are the different options? There's a spectrum from supply and confidence, which means essentially minority governments that have the stability to get on with it and govern, to full GNU [government of national unity], or GLU [government of local unity] models, where we replicate the national scenario at a local level, to a range of variations in between that, that we are considering on a daily basis. So it's a very, very pressured time, because the number of variables are literally thousands. So it's very easy to get overwhelmed by all the variables, but my approach is to try to stick to: what is the key message that voters have sent here? What is it that they have voted for? And what is the best thing for these particular metros, and particularly with 2029 in mind?Alec Hogg (18:01): So it's a little bit like the way you've been approaching your position as leader: not in the cabinet, outside of the cabinet, but getting the information back where you can reflect and think more about it.Geordin Hill-Lewis (18:16): Correct, correct. Because it means that you can be slightly removed from the fine, fine detail, and also hopefully not get caught up in the emotions and the somewhat more petty fights, which are just unnecessary.Alec Hogg (18:37): This story about the funding has now been raised twice. Both Mashaba and Mulder said to me that the DA spent R200 million in Joburg alone. And Herman was very proud to say he spent R80 million in the whole country, and look how well [he] did relative to [you]. What is the truth there? And what do the funders, or the people who've supported you in that way, what do they want in return?Geordin Hill-Lewis (19:08): I think they want a working South Africa. They are passionate patriots who are investing in a more positive future for our country. And kudos to them. There's this belief, or unsaid assumption, that people who donate to political parties are only ever trying to influence-peddle. I think that might be true for some political parties. But I think actually there's a whole lot of passionate, patriotic South Africans who want a better future for this country. They want this country to work. They want it to offer opportunity to more people, and safety to more people. And they're prepared to back that with their resources. And I say a massive cheer and round of applause to them. They are actually very brave in doing so. And in this election, hopefully, if we can get working governments, stable governments in these cities that can start a turnaround, imagine what that would do for our country. If those three Gauteng metros in particular... that's not to diminish or belittle the influence and impact of the other metros, including my own... but if those three metros in particular fire on all cylinders, we just know what it will do for our national economy and our national sense of forward momentum and progress. So this is absolutely make or break for South Africa. And it's why we're taking these discussions so seriously. And so I think those people who contribute to that success should be very proud of having done so.Alec Hogg (20:44): The Nelson... sorry, the Julius Malema lawsuit against Helen Zille. What happens there? Do you fund it? If there's a journalist who works for BizNews and they get sued by someone, BizNews will obviously stand up and fund the lawsuit. Is it the same in a political party?Geordin Hill-Lewis (21:02): Mm. Absolutely. Yeah. No, we will back that to the hilt if it should go to court. I strongly suspect that it never will. But if it does, then so be it. We'll back it, and it should be a very fun exercise to subject the EFF and its leadership and some of its key figures to cross-examination.Alec Hogg (21:32): But it's quite interesting to us, because we hear of this thing called parliamentary privilege, but if you're outside of Parliament, that falls away. Just explain that, so that those who are observing this can understand why terrible things are said about rivals in Parliament, but now Helen's being sued by Julius.Geordin Hill-Lewis (21:55): Yes. So parliamentary privilege is a concept that is, so far as I understand, a hangover from Westminster still, that says you cannot be sued for anything that you say inside Parliament. You should have a very broad freedom of speech inside Parliament, and your speech there is protected against legal recourse. So of course there could be sanction inside Parliament if you behave in a disorderly way, or disrupt the sittings, or say something that is insulting. The Speaker can call you to order, but you cannot be sued for it. And that is called parliamentary privilege. So members of Parliament have that when they are speaking inside Parliament. To be clear, you can't use your parliamentary privilege when you're speaking to a journalist outside, or on your Facebook page, whatever. But councillors do not have that in South Africa. I don't know if they have that anywhere else in the world either, actually. I'm not sure. But they don't have it here. So Helen doesn't have it, and so he is well within his rights to take action if he wants to. But he must think through the full consequences of having to go and prove that what she says is libellous, because of course the opportunity is there for us to prove the statements as well. So that might well be quite, quite fun to do.Alec Hogg (23:24): Hmm. You've mentioned a couple of times 2029 being such an important next milestone, and we did discuss perhaps it's even sooner than that. What does the path to victory in 2029 look like from here?Geordin Hill-Lewis (23:45): Yeah, that's a great question. We've started on that path, and that's why I said at the results centre last week that this is a great platform now for 2029, and our preparations start immediately. Because the core insight is you cannot become a party that is larger than the ANC based purely on our current electorate. We had to grow our electorate, particularly with people who have never voted for the DA before, predominantly black South Africans. And I assume that many of them, most of them, are former ANC supporters who, either in the last election or at some point over the last decade or decade and a half, have become totally alienated from that party. And I don't think that that trend is reversing. And now we are, in basically every township community in the country, at least a 10% party, and in many cases much, much more than that; in some parts of Cape Town here, 30, 40% in township wards. And I just want to put a pin in this for a second and say this is another great lesson to all of those people who constantly drone on about the DA online: your online bubble is not the real world. We have learnt that lesson again in this election. Just because, well, not you, Alec, but someone likes to drone on on social media about how the DA doesn't serve everyone equally... well, actually, those voters are responding to the efforts that the DA is making to actually improve services, improve dignity, improve their lives, deliver a growing economy, by supporting the DA. And as I say, we are now the third-largest party among black voters in South Africa, after the ANC and MK. So this is an extraordinary shift. Extraordinary. Probably the biggest shift in these election results. And that bodes extremely well for our future ambitions. That means that we can break through this glass ceiling that we've had in the past, and we can build a much, much bigger constituency that can at least give us the chance... I'm not saying that it's a guarantee, there's no such thing in politics... but give us the chance to compete in future, toe to toe, to be the biggest party in the country.Alec Hogg (26:15): Our columnist William Saunderson-Meyer dedicated a big part of his column this week to what went on in uMngeni with Chris Pappas. And looking back on that, Chris did resign, and I know you guys had to work hard to bring him back into the fold. It seems to have been a very good investment of your time.Geordin Hill-Lewis (26:36): Absolutely. Chris is such a champion, and I think he's an absolute rising star in South African politics. We're very, very privileged to have him on our team. And he's done something... and credit to his team as well, it's obviously not Chris alone, but he heads up that team... they've done something extraordinary. If I'm not mistaken, he's won 60% of the vote in uMngeni, but I think 48%, or 42%, excuse me, 42% of support from black voters in uMngeni. Just extraordinary. And he's done that by showing that the DA delivers for everyone, and those voters have responded in kind. And that is just a huge encouragement. And if we can do that, as we have done here with our best-ever results in Cape Town and many other township communities around the country, then we can build on that for the future.Alec Hogg (27:40): It's an interesting fact that he only just scraped home in 2021 in uMngeni, and has got a good majority now. Forty-two votes. And a similar story seems to be playing out in Midvaal now, with Emfuleni next door. This template of yours, of getting in and governing well, does rely, though, on a maturing of the South African voting population. How far along that curve are we, do you feel?Geordin Hill-Lewis (28:14): Well, it's hard to know. It's hard to see the full future and know how long and how steep the curve is. But I can tell you, every day we're progressing along it. That is clear. And in this election, voters have voted the most ever based on actual service delivery. And that's really, really good and healthy for our democracy. That's a wonderful thing. That should give us all hope as South Africans, and it certainly makes me optimistic. And I think in the next election it will be even more the case. So our democracy clearly is maturing, and in a healthy direction. Obviously there are some concerning trends. There is also a kind of populist stream in our body politic that has gained some traction. But nevertheless, the fact is that voters in this election have been more focused on service delivery than they ever have been, and that is very good for South Africa.Alec Hogg (29:15): There were also quite a lot of forecasts ahead of the election that the Patriotic Alliance would give you a rough ride, not just in Cape Town, but in many parts of the Western Cape. Why do you think that didn't eventuate?Geordin Hill-Lewis (29:31): Well, let me just say, credit to Gayton [McKenzie]. He did phone me to congratulate me, and I think he said he owes me a lunch. I think we [had a] bet [on it], that he would beat me in Cape Town, and he's going to stick by that. So that's very good. It's not my place... Again, I said I'm really not interested in bad-mouthing other political parties, but I'm obviously pleased that the threat did not materialise. And they will have to do some introspection as to why it didn't materialise, and go back to the drawing board. But from my perspective, it's a great thing for Cape Town and a great thing for many Western Cape towns that it in fact did not materialise, or not nearly to the degree that had been spoken about or feared. And so it allowed us to win back a majority in George, for example. It allowed us to sweep back most of those wards that had been lost in by-elections over the last couple of years. They're all back in the DA's column, or most of them are back in the DA's column. The PA's mayoral candidate here in Cape Town lost his own ward. So, very pleasing results from our perspective. They will have to do their own assessment. It's not for me to critique their election campaign. But it didn't work as well as they had hoped.Alec Hogg (30:56): And just to close off: 14 days from today, as you say, the clock has started. What does success look like to you?Geordin Hill-Lewis (31:10): I think if we can have the prospect of stability in these major metros for the next five years, because that is what they desperately need. We can't have a situation where we have this revolving door of mayors from absolutely minuscule minnow parties who think that they hold all the sway, and then we just see service delivery going further and further backwards in those critical cities. So the reasonable prospect of stability; the reasonable prospect of a corruption-free government, a government that is serious about rooting out corruption and not allowing it to flourish, as it is currently doing in many of those metros. And then I think one that broadly reflects the outcome that the public voted for. This principle of proportionality, I think, is an important one for us on the DA side: that broadly it should reflect the outcome of the election. So if we can get governments in place in two weeks' time that reflect those things, then I think we give these cities the best shot they have had in probably two decades of actually turning around and contributing immensely to South Africa's regeneration. Because, as I've said, particularly in that massive market of Gauteng, with its 18 million residents and, whatever it is, 40% of the South African economy, I think it is, those cities have to work for South Africa to work. And now is the moment. It's the best shot we've had. We dare not fail now.Alec Hogg (32:50): Geordin Hill-Lewis is the leader of the Democratic Alliance, and I'm Alec Hogg with your BizNews Edge.