It’s been my privilege to spend time with Jim Wallis in Davos over the past dozen years. He is among the heavyweights of the high-profile faith-based leaders who lend critical balance to the proceedings at this nexus of power. His day job is with Sojourners, an organisation which facilitates interaction between and connects spiritual communities worldwide – basing its message on ethics and morality. He is a regular visitor to South Africa, counts himself a close pal of Archbishop Desmond Tutu, and is a huge fan of the icon’s forthright successor, Thabo Makgoba. This is an interview to cherish. Wallis explains why President Jacob Zuma is dead wrong in calling for the churches to stay out of politics; and exposes some of the incredible work being done behind the scenes to address the corruption which has become commonplace in SA. For instance, Wallis connected young South Africans with the #BlackLivesMatter group in Ferguson and they’re working on strategies together. What really resonated, though, was his assertion that even though facts might not currently support such conclusions, by employing faith and imagining what the future can be like, it gets manifest into reality. Wallis is confident South Africa will soon shake off its recent troubles sparked by a President and his crony capitalist friends pillaging in the name of transformation. After hearing his stories, so am I. Hope springs. – Alec Hogg
Iām here with one of my favourite people in Davos, Jim Wallis from Sojourners. How many years have you been coming?
Oh, about a dozen years.
Youāve seen incredible transformations over that period. This year though, it does seem to be very, very different because of Brexit, of course Trump, what might be happening in Europe, and so on.
Well, I think thereās a real battle going on for the direction of the future, I think thatās really true, so whether there be a moral compass is the question. In the US, weāre in a very reactive period now. Donald Trump used racial bigotry directly in his campaign and a majority of white people voted for Donald Trump. Many of them would say, āI didnāt vote for him because of his racial bigotryā, but his racial bigotry was not a deal breaker for them, was not a disqualifier and people of colour voted against him overwhelmingly. We have a racial divide in the US like we havenāt seen for a long time.
A couple of years ago you gave the popeās message here in Davos and I thought it was very interesting that Donald Trump got a lot of support, supposed endorsement from the Pope, which of course never was, it was part of the whole fake news agenda.
No, the Pope actually spoke against what Trump was saying and he Tweeted against the Pope like he Tweets against everyone, but I think everyone in the country knew that Francis was advocating the agenda very different than Donald Trumpās, but again most white Catholics voted for Donald Trump and 81 percent of white Evangelicals voted for Trump, but Christians of colour voted against Donald Trump all across the country, so again the racial divide is clear. Right after the inauguration, Iām actually happy to be missing the inauguration, happy to be here, but next week many of us in the faith community are going to launch whatās called the Matthew 25 Pledge.
The 23rd chapter of the gospel of Matthew was where Jesus says, āI was hungry, I was thirsty, I was naked, I was a stranger, immigrant, I was sick, in prison and you werenāt there for meā and they say, āLaurel, when do we see you hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, and in prison?ā He says, āAs youāve done to the least of these, youāve done to meā. So a simple pledge is, āI will defend and protect vulnerable peopleā and many people in our country are feeling very vulnerable right now because they were targeted by the candidate who has now become the President, and the stories.
I just, I canāt say to your audience how many people that Iām directly hearing from every day who are being verbally attacked and physically threatened by people who claim to be Trump supporters, black church leaders, young people, Hispanic kids on the playground. Weāre going to be defending and protecting vulnerable people as a pledge across the country, the Matthew 25 Pledge, and itās getting lots of attraction, so our work is cut out for us in the weeks and months and years ahead.
Jim, you know South Africa very well, youāve seen a lot of turbulence there, but it was when the faith community got involved that Apartheid fell. Recently the faith community has been involved in a very strong anti-corruption drive because it appears to have become the endemic in the country. Is this something that you write, Godās blog, the almighty would actually agree with, that you should get involved in politics, or is it something that is best left to the politicians?
Oh, no, no. South Africa has changed my life, South Africa over many, many decades; Iāve had the blessing to be involved, to be close to many people there. South Africa really gave me my theology of hope. Hebrew says, āFaith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seenā. My best paraphrase of that text is, āHope means believing in spite of the evidence, then watching the evidence changeā and I saw that in Desmond Tutu and Frank Chikane and Allan Boesak in the old days and with those Christians literally only the eyes of faith could see, the victory and you know 14 year old kids in Soweto, 14 year olds, I would say, āWill your children breathe free air in South Africa?ā, 14 year olds looked me in the eye and they would say, āI will see to itā. I learned my theology hope that even when you canāt see the changes, your belief in them helps make the changes possible.
Over the years Iāve been, and this last time that I went, I went back to do a speaking tour and a lot of the older church leaders said, āWeāve got to drop this, weāve got to get out of politics after Apartheid ended and Mandela came in, we were all in the government, but we kind of dropped our prophetic role, we have to find it againā. We ran around, they had me speak with the ANC leadership and they were very nervous about being critiqued by churches and I said to them, āNow ANC, when I was here it was a movement, now itās a government. Do you understand that we Christians feel differently about movements and governments? Youāre going to be critiqued, thatās our jobā.
You know, they werenāt happy about that, it was a good conversation, but I met a whole new generation and these were young people who were driving me around, who were staffing. I began talking to them and the more I went around, the more of them I met, the more they would kind of cluster around these events, late night conversations and there is a whole new generation of young South African leaders who are leading this anti-corruption battle. I am on the phone with them a lot and weāre on the phone back and forth and weāre sending our young leaders to South Africa. They have been to our leadership conference and in fact, this is a powerful story.
I had a number of those young leaders from South Africa at our leadership summit a year ago and at the same summit we had the young Ferguson leaders there as well and I got the two groups together and I said, āI want you all to meet and talk, go off and talkā. They said, āArenāt you coming?ā I said, āYou donāt need me, you go off and talkā and now theyāre corresponding back and forth, theyāre talking strategy. This is the Black Lives Matter movement in the US and your young leaders, multi-racial in South Africa are having strategic conversations having met at the sturgeon of leadership, so that two years ago, a year and a half ago, that was a great moment for me. I had these young leaders on and these two countries have their conversation.
The Ferguson, perhaps not everyone remembers it, you were very involved there with what happened at Ferguson and that made a huge difference.
Oh yes, well I got arrested in Ferguson along with all the young men.
You were thrown in jail.
Yes, they put me in jail, but you know, to be honest, they treated faith leaders, Cornel West and I were arrested together and they put us in jail, but they were, āReverend are your handcuffs too tight now, can we loosen those, orā¦ā, they were worried about their role, whether itās going to get all wrinkled in jail. They treat young black men very differently than church leaders who are arrested, but I was on the streets with the young people, listening to them. We went in there early on and thereās a real bond that we feel. Thereās a whole new generation of young black activists and a multi-racial group of supporters around the country that Iām very hopeful about and again, I met their peers in South Africa.
I came back from my last trip to South Africa very encouraged by what I saw, by a new generation of leaders who really want to take their faith to public life. I believe in the separation of church and state, but that doesnāt mean the segregation of moral values from public life. We need to engage the common good and public life and that means politics. Youāve got to be involved in issues that are political from a moral perspective and thatās what I see happening in South Africa again, with a whole new wonderful generation of leaders I talk to now on a regular basis.
Thabo Makgoba, who is of course, Desmond Tutuās successor, Iām not sure if he was directly, but he is now the Archbishop of the Anglican Church, heās come out and made some pretty strong statements. He had a beautiful Christmas mass message, which went viral. Subsequent to that the President said, āYouāve got to stay out of politicsā. If you were in Thaboās camp explaining to him, or advising him what to do, how would you suggest he handles that?
I know Thabo and I would say I am in this camp and I would say, āYou keep speaking out and when the President tells you not to, you know youāre doing the right thingā. Heās doing exactly the right thing and it is in Desmondās tradition that heās speaking out, so to me and I remember when Mandela, after he got out of prison, he had a big gathering in the Soweto Stadium with all the faith leaders, multi-faith leaders thanking them for their indispensable role in bringing down Apartheid.
If the faith hadnāt been involved, as Mandela said, it might have not gone the way that it did, so Thabo is doing the right thing. I met him actually, here in Davos years ago. We met and talked and he was this young guy. He knew that I was very close to Desmond Tutu and so we talked about lots of stuff. I liked him then and I liked him better and better. Heās doing the right thing, he should speak out. Faith leaders, weāre never partisan, you know weāre not supporting candidates and parties; weāre supporting moral issues, moral values, and moral framework, moral accountability. Weāre talking about the common good and we are the ones that have to lift up the people who are often left out, lifting up the vulnerable, the marginal, those who are left out by elites like those who inhabit this place here, for example.
Indeed. Itās a lovely story that you tell and the faith in what the future will bring because in South Africa itās almost a binary future at the moment. There are those who have given up hope, there are those who continue to fight on because they believe that the institutions are holding, the constitution is a good one and there are those who would turn it into a different country. The moral compass that you mentioned earlier needs to be found somewhere, where would that come from?
Let me start by saying, I feel very personally invested in South Africaās future. This isnāt just something that is just for South Africans. South Africa changed the world; the anti-Apartheid movement changed all of us. Nelson Mandela, when he came to the US for the first time after coming out of prison, he met with a group of us in a room at Riverside Church and then he preached at Riverside Church and I have never been in a room with a political leader (and Iāve been in the room with all of them, all the American ones) who had such moral authority and whose presence filled that room.
There is a real moral compass from the leadership of Nelson Mandela and the anti-Apartheid movement and then his spiritual brother, Desmond Tutu, who was the master of ceremonies at the inauguration, and so the leadership of Mandela and Tutu around some of these, like the Truth and Reconciliation, so many things, was a moral compass and nations often donāt have a moral compass. Youāre blessed to have a moral compass embodied by Nelson Mandela and the kind of leader that he was and people like Desmond Tutu and all the people he gave credit to as part of his team and now a new generation doing that too, so it can come from the faith community as long as it isnāt sectarian. It canāt just be for people of faith; itās got to be a pluralistic country that brings people together of all faith traditions and those who have no faith at all.
Many young people today, the box they check for their religious affiliation is none-of-the-above. I call them the ānonesā, Iāve always loved the ānonesā. Now the other ānunsā I love too. When I go out speaking at these really conservative Christian campuses as a young man, there would be two rows of Catholic sisters in their habits. I said, āSisters, why are you here?ā They would say, āJim, weāre localā. I said, āWell, I figured youāre local, but why are you here?ā They said, āWell, this is a very conservative place and somebody had to have your backā, so I had nuns for bodyguards for years at these Christian colleges, but now the ānoneāsā, these young people, my audiences are filled with these young kids and most of them would say they believe in God, they just donāt want to affiliate with religion because of what we have or havenāt done.
Theyāre looking for courage, they want their lives to mean more than just their own careers, they want their lives to make a difference in the world and they want a faith that makes a difference in the world, so I found a lot in common with the none-of-the-aboveās and I think in South Africa I meet many young Christians, but also other faith traditions and many young people who just kind of were hanging around because that moral compass is very attractive to them. Itās what moral politics are, not partisan, but these are moral issues.
Healthcare is a moral issue, education is a moral issue, jobs are a moral issue, wages are a moral issue, and the environmentās a moral issue. These are all what weāre discussing here in Davos, theyāre not just business issues, theyāre not just political issues, theyāre moral issues and I was just in a session on the new sustainable development goals, STGās and a businessperson said, āUntil this becomes a moral compass for us, weāre not going to succeedā, heās a CEO. You could make a good business case for why this makes sense, but finally itās a moral choice about what kind of rule we want to have.
Jim, just wrapping up of whatās going on here in Davos, I was at the Edelmanās Trust barometer this morning, which shows trust has fallen again in the past year, not surprisingly and is now at the level it was last at in 2009. It does however; appear as though business is getting a wakeup call to move in a more moral direction. Do you think thatās wishful thinking?
Again, for me hope is neverā¦ Desmond Tutu taught me the difference between hope and optimism. Optimism is how things look this morning when you got up and looked outside and looked at your schedule and looked at the weather and all that. Hope is not a feeling, hope is not a personality type, hope is a choice, a decision you make because of this thing that we call faith, so I do think there are many wake up calls right now. Donald Trump is a wakeup call, but I said to a group of faith leaders, we had at a retreat in the US and theyāre all feeling emotional, discouraged, angry, fearful and I said, āLook at it this way, a crisis like this can either deepen our faith and deepen our relationships to each other or not, but if it did who knows what could come out of thatā and so just politics as usual is what we were expecting and not much might have come out of that.
Iām not happy for Donald Trumpās election. It really reflects Americaās worst values. He represents Americaās worst values. In all of our Christian history, every movement, every Catholic order has always had an alternative to money, sex, power, poverty, chastity, obedience. Donald Trump is a worshipper of money, sex and power, he embodies our worst values and yet his election could cause a wakeup call, make us go deeper in our faith and deeper in our relationships with each other, and that could build a real movement of change like something we havenāt seen for a long time.
"The response we have to the new administration is: faith, resistance, and healing." Jim Wallis https://t.co/pL0dj8PJ2r via @sojourners
— Catherine Hagman (@CatherineHagman) January 8, 2017
So letās take these things that happen and ask, āOkay, what does God maybe want us to do in the middle of thisā and in South Africa I was hearing mostly about the corruption, about lack of leadership, the ANC betraying the vision of Nelson Mandela, I was hearing all those things and then I met the kids driving me around and hanging around and talking and I came back saying, āOkay, itās going to be okay. There is real leadership growing here, thereās hope again hereā, but hope is a decision we make based on what weā¦ you know the story I often tell about Desmond, when I arrived in South Africa back in the eighties, I was snuck in the country because I was on all these security lists here and there.
I could have never got in, but I got snuck in the country as a visiting pastor and then I had to meet Desmond Tutu at St Georgeās at the cathedral and he couldnāt come meet me and he couldnāt see me because I was on the security list, so I met him there and the place had been surrounded by the police and military. A rally had been called off. He had said, āWeāre going to just have churchā and they wouldnāt call that off, so heās there and heās preaching and Iām in the cathedral having just arrived and all of a sudden outside there are three times as many military and police as there are worshippers on the inside, outnumbering us three to one. They were supposed to scare us. I just arrived; it was working pretty well for me.
It was pretty scary and then they broke into the door, the South African security just broke in the door, they stood along the walls of his cathedral with note pads and tape recorders saying in effect, āYou go ahead, you be prophetic, you be bold, weāll get it all downā, he had just come out of jail, āWeāll put you back in jailā. They were saying in effect to him, āWe own this country, we own this place, we own you, and we own your Godā, thatās what they were saying. He stopped talking; he bowed his head in prayer. We were all wondering whatās he going to say, opens his eyes, he says, āYouā, points at the police, āYou are very powerful, you are very powerful indeed, but youāre not gods and I serve a god who will not be mockedā and he smiled that big Desmond Tutu smile, āSoā, he says, āSince you have already lostā, he began bouncing like a black Baptist preacher, āSince youāve already lost, we invite you today to come and join the winning sideā.
The young people jumped up and danced us outside, toy-toyied and danced and the police outside didnāt know what to do, dancing worshipers, they all backed off and then I was at the inauguration many years later and he was the master of ceremonies, Bishop Tutu, āDo you remember that day in St Georgeās, do you remember what happened, werenāt you sad, what we did?ā He smiled, he remembered. I said, āToday, theyāve all joined the winning sideā because there wasnāt one South African that day who hadnāt always been against Apartheid and so to me that showed me my theology of hope.
On that day when youāre surrounded by all the evidence against you, you have the eyes of aid to see the party thatās coming, the celebration, you couldnāt see it except through the eyes of faith, but he saw it and our job as Christians is not to just be at the party, which was wonderful to be at the inauguration, to me it was one of the blessed events of my whole life, but the real job is to be back at St Georgeās where by faith you can see the victory celebration or party, but through the eyes of faith and then as he would say, āYou bet your life on what you believeā and thatās what changes the world and Iāve seen that in South Africa again and again, and thatāll always be where my theology hope was formed.
Jim Wallis, itās always a privilege. Thank you.
Blessed and you.
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