While media and polling narratives might suggest otherwise, South African elections are won or lost on logistics – the practicality of actually getting voters to the polls and having party faithful there to welcome them. Former DA Leader Mmusi Maimane reminds us of reality in a pre-election interview where the Presidential candidate discloses BOSA’s targets for 2024 – and beyond. He spoke to BizNews editor Alec Hogg.
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Highlights from the Interview
In a recent interview with Alec Hogg, Mmusi Maimane, leader of Build One South Africa (BOSA), discussed the challenges and opportunities his party faces in the upcoming elections. Maimane highlighted BOSA’s recent success in organizing multiple large rallies across different regions, emphasizing the party’s growing infrastructure and grassroots presence. He expressed confidence in BOSA’s ability to secure a significant number of seats in Parliament, aiming for a double-digit presence to influence national policy effectively.
Reflecting on his past with the Democratic Alliance (DA), Maimane acknowledged regrets but stressed the necessity of moving forward to build a new political landscape in South Africa. He criticized the DA’s current ideological stance and emphasized BOSA’s commitment to a diverse, inclusive, and forward-looking approach. Maimane underscored the importance of coalition building, stating his willingness to collaborate with various political leaders, including Gayton McKenzie, to achieve common goals like eradicating corruption and stimulating the economy.
Maimane envisions a transformed Parliament with fresher, more dynamic debates focused on national issues rather than individual scandals. He sees this election as a transitional moment for South Africa, offering an opportunity for a new generation of leaders to drive meaningful change and restore accountability in government.
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Edited transcript of the Interview
00:00:07:14 – 00:00:30:07 Alec Hogg: A veteran politician I spoke to yesterday said all the work has been done, that this is the time when the butterflies really flutter around the stomach. It would be interesting to find out how another veteran, although he’s still very young, Mmusi Maimane, is feeling right now with the election a week away. Hey, Mmusi, lovely talking with you again.
00:00:30:07 – 00:00:58:07 Alec Hogg: We’ve been following your journey on BizNews for a while. I must say that a lot of what I’m reading in the media is confusing right now, including what is coming out of the pollsters. But we’re trying to get to the truth or at least get some kind of understanding ahead of next Wednesday’s big vote here in South Africa on the 29th of May.
00:00:58:09 – 00:01:13:15 Alec Hogg: Maybe just give us an update from your side, because you’re starting to show up slightly in the polls. BOSA is, but not really with the kind of significance that would justify the amount of work you’ve been putting in over the past year or so.
00:01:13:17 – 00:01:37:10 Mmusi Maimane: Yeah. And I mean, there are many things that when I look at particularly some of the polls that have come out, I find hard to believe. The hard yards that we’ve got to do are obviously competing in a very congested space. You’re asking South Africans who historically have been allied to the ANC to make a different choice.
00:01:37:10 – 00:02:07:06 Mmusi Maimane: And I often find it’s a bit like in the US elections from time to time. When people are getting themselves ready to move from what is typically conventional, often polls can’t pick that up. That’s why sometimes polling missed the election of President Trump. My impression of it is that as I’m going on the ground and seeing South Africans, it is hard to believe that is reflected in the current polling.
00:02:07:06 – 00:02:29:01 Mmusi Maimane: And as we started to tick up the polls, we kind of look at what trends look like. The first is we needed to ensure that South Africans, when asked, could identify BOSA. This was important because you remember when I think we last spoke, the hard work we had to do was to link Mmusi Maimane and BOSA, and I think that work has begun to happen more.
00:02:29:03 – 00:02:48:02 Mmusi Maimane: Secondly, I think our message of a job in every home is resonating. I hear it on radio shows and interviews. People are asking the correct question, which is to say, if you promise a job in every home, how do you do it? Because it’s important in any election campaign to hold a message that people can resonate with, even if they are critical of it.
00:02:48:02 – 00:03:11:13 Mmusi Maimane: It has to be memorable enough for people to consider it. So, I’m feeling quite buoyed. I think these elections will surprise many South Africans. I really believe so. For me, the two bellwether or at least the two trend lines are that the ANC is not getting above 50%, and there’s an upsurge of new political parties coming forward.
00:03:11:15 – 00:03:38:06 Alec Hogg: So help me out a little bit here. I did some looking back on the recent 2021 by-elections where the ANC came in around 40-47%, so it’s now already below 50% since 2021. If anything, it would not have been in the ANC’s favor, although that was a very low poll. Less than 50% of the people even bothered to vote at that stage.
00:03:38:08 – 00:04:03:03 Alec Hogg: Now we’ve got lots of interest in this election. We saw from those who voted in London that they went around the block a couple of times. Some of them took 3 or 4 hours to cast their vote. But there is interest here as well. And with the 10 million voters plus who stayed away from the last election, a large percentage of them would be coming in. So I’m just trying to work out in my mind, if the ANC was in a downward slide, why would the new voters come back and then vote for the ANC?
00:04:03:05 – 00:04:35:22 Alec Hogg: You’re a political veteran. You’re an insider. You know how these things work, and you know also what your opposition or your competitors in the current ruling party will be thinking. But where does this align with 47% in the most recent election? And now, despite a difficult time since then, why are they convinced they will still get 50% plus?
00:04:36:00 – 00:04:44:08 Mmusi Maimane: Yeah, so, a couple of things. The first is, whichever poll you look at, the number of undecided voters is high for seven days before an election, right on the eve of an election.
00:04:44:10 – 00:05:16:03 Mmusi Maimane: So it’s a known fact. It means that those voters are undecided about the status quo. And that’s a real positive in our democracy, because it means that when you increase turnout, those people aren’t turning out to come and affirm the status quo. They are turning out to say we need change, and they’ll make their choices as to what the change looks like. We think we’ve got a favorable rating amongst those voters who are disillusioned with the past, thinking about the future, and are coming on board to say, what do we need to do now?
Read more: BNC#6: Mmusi Maimane champions visionary leadership in post-ANC South Africa
00:05:16:05 – 00:05:40:23 Mmusi Maimane: The second thing is elections are often fought on the ground. It’s tempting to look at sentiment online, etc., and think that will give you a bellwether about what’s going to happen. But actually, you need to get on the ground to see where people are at. So, for example, to use MK as an example, it’s overbaked in the polls, in my humble opinion. Some people put it in the high tens or more than 10%.
00:06:01:05 – 00:06:28:04 Mmusi Maimane: But when you go on the ground and go to communities, you realize there’s no structure, there’s no mechanism to move voters from home to the polls. There’s none of that. So yes, they can have a big rally, but elections are about building infrastructure in many micro-communities so that you never live in a voting district. In every community, you can pull people out. So, that to me tells me that we’re living in a time of great unknowns, which for someone like me is exciting.
00:06:28:09 – 00:06:51:11 Mmusi Maimane: And I think for South Africa, it’s a huge prospect because there can be an inbuilt fear that says, well, actually the ANC at over 50% may be the better devil, as it were. I fundamentally disagree with that view. The best way we can approach this is to ask, how does a grand coalition of the opposition work together to unseat the current government, select the best cabinet of various individuals within those political parties?
00:06:51:12 – 00:07:19:23 Mmusi Maimane: Even if some of the parties are not formal members of the coalition, they could certainly use their votes to elect a speaker, president, or pass a budget. I think that’s a powerful opportunity for us to see change in this country. I don’t want to bake fear, but I want to say that if we don’t get it right now, another five years of ANC government is going to create a sense among voters that, regardless of the moment and the flaws of the ANC, there can be no accountability at the polls.
00:07:20:00 – 00:07:49:03 Mmusi Maimane: You then end up in a scenario where people don’t believe democracy is the best way for things to change. And I think this is an important moment.
00:07:49:05 – 00:08:06:06 Alec Hogg: As I mentioned at the outset, we’ve been following your story over the past couple of years quite closely. I recall you coming into the studio in Bryanston from Limpopo, where you’d been working on the ground. How’s that effort paying off?
00:08:06:07 – 00:08:35:22 Mmusi Maimane: Incredibly, you know, you know, I can look at this last weekend. You talk about overseas voting, rally voting, voting patterns, right? Just this last weekend alone, BOSA was able to hold a sizable rally in Limpopo, in Welkom, and in Potchefstroom all at the same time, with crowds of over 2000 at each of those. Now, to build the machinery to be able to achieve that takes effort.
00:08:35:22 – 00:09:00:00 Mmusi Maimane: Having spent time in multiple communities and being able to build leadership capability and inviting communities to come on board, that’s just one weekend. And I can tell you, every single day there are BOSA champions going to communities, literally inviting citizens to our message of let’s build one South Africa together. We can put a job in every home and educate our kids.
00:09:00:02 – 00:09:27:06 Mmusi Maimane: South Africans are hearing it. So, to me, I’m actually feeling as a reflection of not only the candidates we’ve been able to get from those communities—as you say, I was in Limpopo—there were many candidates, independent candidates, that we’re working with. We’ve got a caliber of candidates who are located in their communities. We’ve also found we’ve been able to quickly spread across the country and attract diversity, because when you give power back to the people, they give you the diversity.
00:09:27:06 – 00:09:54:22 Mmusi Maimane: Whereas if you say to yourself as a political party, we’re going to pre-select our list and tell people who to vote for, you run the risk of them not feeling empowered to contribute. So, regardless of the outcome, let me say this categorically: BOSA is an established force. We have presence across the country, and we have infrastructure to build, not only for these elections, but for the future.
00:09:55:00 – 00:10:05:09 Mmusi Maimane: And I feel we’ve thrown everything at this, including the kitchen sink. So, to achieve that is remarkable for a party that’s less than 18 months old.
00:10:05:11 – 00:10:30:07 Alec Hogg: So there is a lot more to getting a good election result than just getting lots of publicity and your face in front of people, as you’ve explained to us. How are you seeing the outcome for BOSA and indeed for other parties right now, as you sit here? You’ve always been one who kind of tells me straight.
00:10:30:07 – 00:10:35:19 Alec Hogg: So give me a sense of how you’re seeing it now, with a week to go.
00:10:35:21 – 00:10:57:08 Mmusi Maimane: With a week to go, I think what’s now critical, as you know, is who has been able to build the correct infrastructure. So when I look at some of the new parties that have started, you can be in—you can, to use a war metaphor, have an air war campaign and a ground war campaign.
00:10:57:10 – 00:11:19:20 Mmusi Maimane: So your air war might be good in that people hear from you online, etc., but your ground war might be weak, which means that you can’t turn people out. And so I think there’ll be a lot of money spent on new parties that you’ll find the dividend isn’t quite there. In essence, I think you’ll also equally find—I think to me the ANC is overbaked.
00:11:19:22 – 00:11:53:12 Mmusi Maimane: I really think that the ANC are in trouble. If I was having sleepless nights, it would be President Ramaphosa because a sub-50 result for him is the end of his job. I think the unknown variable is what will happen with parties like the Freedom Front Plus and us and all of them. I think that the Freedom Front Plus has gone out and done some work on the ground that I’ve been witness to. And I think as the DA itself is starting to produce communication that’s not helpful for South Africa.
00:11:53:13 – 00:12:12:15 Mmusi Maimane: You know, things like burning the flag and a message that really I’m not sure we can all understand. I think the beneficiary of that may be the Freedom Front Plus. So when I think about BOSA, I think we’ve done the work. We’ve done the work to get enough seats to get into Parliament to be a significant force.
00:12:12:15 – 00:12:17:21 Mmusi Maimane: And I’m working hard at saying we’ve got to at least get into a double-digit number of seats. That’s my goal.
00:12:18:00 – 00:12:20:07 Alec Hogg: And what percentage of the vote would that be?
00:12:20:10 – 00:12:40:06 Mmusi Maimane: Well, anything from, I mean, you know, anything from about—we’ve wanted to go for about 2 to 5% of the vote, and that’ll be a significant shift in terms of what we do. And I think with seven days to go, that is looking more and more possible. And the recent polls that have shown us, you know, you’ve got to increase turnout, you’ve got to do all of that.
00:12:40:06 – 00:12:58:00 Mmusi Maimane: They put us above even in certain provinces, you know, like we were the fourth biggest party in the Western Cape. In Gauteng we’re growing. In KZN we’re growing even in the recent polls. So provincially, we’re starting to get a good feel for what’s going on. And now we’ve got to aggregate that to get onto the national poll.
00:12:58:02 – 00:13:22:03 Alec Hogg: You’ve got a really good team around you, Mmusi. I’ve met a couple of your candidates who are going to be in Parliament next year. Do you think it’s going to be a different parliament post-May 29th? Obviously, there will be different constituents, but more vibrant, more cerebral, maybe, a higher level of debate, etc.?
00:13:22:05 – 00:13:41:17 Alec Hogg: I know you guys will be doing your bit to try and assist that, but it’s almost like when you look across all political parties, not just yours, there does appear to be more interest now from people who in the past were not even interested in politics, but perhaps now do see that they can make a difference.
00:13:41:19 – 00:14:16:03 Mmusi Maimane: You know, maybe as a person of faith, but also as one who’s observed enough elections, this election feels like a transition. You get a sense, even when looking at the ANC list, that they reject the idea of introducing new, fresh faces to the political campaign. And I think it’s told you everything in the fact that the ANC has had to dig into its ancestry, as it were, to campaign to bring up people like President Mbeki.
00:14:16:03 – 00:14:36:11 Mmusi Maimane: Motlanthe tells you that they’re not future-looking. And I think the ANC won’t just suffer only for corruption, suffer for lack of governance, but it will suffer because it’s now looking backwards. I think what’s become exciting for me is that you begin to see that in the next while, the old parties will become more and more irrelevant in the discussions.
00:14:36:13 – 00:15:00:02 Mmusi Maimane: And I think the new Parliament will begin to introduce new ideas. I long for the day where the debates in Parliament aren’t individualized, and that we’re discussing Jacob Zuma or Phala Phala, acts of corruption. But really, we could come around to debates about, hey, how do we stimulate the economy so that we can get jobs everywhere?
00:15:00:03 – 00:15:23:20 Mmusi Maimane: And you know, what is the debate around Transnet? What is the debate around Eskom? And I really do think with the fresh blood that is coming into Parliament, I think the discussions are going to be different. So when I talk about this transition, I really get a sense that no one wants to go back to discussing Zuma, Ramaphosa, or an aging leadership.
00:15:23:22 – 00:15:41:11 Mmusi Maimane: When I speak to all the fresh new parties, there’s a genuine sense upon which they want to talk about the issues in South Africa. We talk about building. They want to talk about that. So it’s going to be exciting. I also do think it might be a younger parliament. So the rules are going to have to be interestingly put together.
00:15:41:17 – 00:16:18:07 Mmusi Maimane: And whatever the configuration of government is, when you don’t have an outright majority in Parliament, it means that gone will be the days where you could be protected by a vote. So that if a president arrives in Parliament and spews nonsense and then asks people to vote on that nonsense, that people could endorse by using the majority, whereas now you could find a space where genuinely, if the House collectively feels that you’re not answering the question, I think it’s going to be a tough journey for the president because they know that if a motion of no confidence were to be triggered, they’re not guaranteed an outright majority.
00:16:18:12 – 00:16:41:01 Mmusi Maimane: So that, for me, is exciting, and I think it will restore the role of Parliament, not as an oversight body only, but as a real account body, as the apex of accountability. So the executive will fear Parliament, because in the last terms the executive did not fear Parliament. You could even, in answering a question, literally read out of your favorite magazine and that would suffice as an answer.
00:16:41:03 – 00:16:42:23 Mmusi Maimane: Whereas now those days are far gone.
00:16:43:01 – 00:16:56:04 Alec Hogg: Is there a small part of you that wishes you could turn the clock back? There certainly are many South Africans who say, well, if only Mmusi was the face of the DA, it might be a very different election that we’d be going into.
00:16:56:06 – 00:17:33:13 Mmusi Maimane: You know, as I just launched a new book called Dare to Believe, and in there I speak at length about why I could not stay in the DA. In turning the clock back, at some level, yes, there are things I regret about all that took place because some of it was personal. Sometimes I fear that politics can allow the personal to sacrifice the very purpose of a country in that way.
00:17:33:15 – 00:17:57:01 Mmusi Maimane: So for me, given the opportunity to fix it, I would never let the personal sacrifice what is in the public interest. That’s been a big lesson for me. But the second issue is I don’t say this to be dramatic, but I say this genuinely. I am grateful to be here now, and I’ve written a book about the fact that ideologically the DA has really become, in some ways, a minority party, a fightback organization. For the sake of my kids and future generations, we need to build a new South Africa that will enhance the interests of this country in the future.
00:17:57:05 – 00:18:23:18 Mmusi Maimane: So, yes, it came at a massive price, but we had to do it. Because we also have a proportional representative system, I want to say to South Africans, if they vote for BOSA, this doesn’t mean we will not work with the DA. It just means that the votes they couldn’t get, we could bring in partnership to deliver change.
00:18:23:18 – 00:18:45:06 Mmusi Maimane: In many ways, the opportunity might be better positioned now. If there are South Africans who said they don’t fully trust the DA, they don’t have to feel that all their votes must go to one party. They can vote for BOSA, knowing we’re not trying to bring the DA via the back door. We’re simply saying that the center ground of South Africa must be a home for those South Africans. When we build this grand coalition of the opposition, it gives us an opportunity to work together for the future.
00:18:45:08 – 00:19:07:12 Mmusi Maimane: I’m privileged in this sense, not only in the diversity of language but in being relatable to all the leaders of political parties. I can pick up the phone on any given day and speak to Pieter Groenewald, Julius Malema, Bantu Holomisa, the ACDP, Herman Mashaba, whoever, because each of them has given the due respect and they’ve returned it in kind. We could work together to build South Africa. Had I just remained in the DA, that opportunity could become less given some of the politics that were taking place there.
00:19:07:12 – 00:19:34:22 Mmusi Maimane: I think we have the best chance to bring a coalition of the opposition together now.
00:19:35:00 – 00:20:02:22 Alec Hogg: You didn’t mention Gayton McKenzie. Can you sit around the same fire as him?
00:20:03:00 – 00:20:41:03 Mmusi Maimane: Gayton and I, I was with him just two weeks ago. I know him, I’ve spoken to him, we have a relationship, and he understands the nature of the project we’re engaged with. Despite all the noise, the trick about coalition building is not to be moralistic about it because there are good people and bad people in all organizations. The trick is to be clear on vision, committed to it, and ask people to work towards it regularly. If we can agree to eradicate corruption, that’s an important landmark, and everyone must sign up to that. If we can agree that it’s about the economy, as the famous saying goes, and that we’re going to put a job in every home, let’s focus on that. Fix Eskom, do all those things.
00:20:41:03 – 00:21:11:07 Mmusi Maimane: We’ve put a plan together, and I would be willing to sit down with Gayton and say, here’s the ten-point plan. We’re not here to discuss anything else. That’s what we’re going to focus on. And it’ll be the same for Bantu Holomisa, Pieter Groenewald, or anyone else who ends up in Parliament. We’ve got to ask ourselves, what is the plan we’re working towards? Of course, the greatest mistake we could make would be to form a coalition government and do worse than the ANC. That would reverse the fortunes of this country tenfold at the next election.
00:21:11:07 – 00:21:30:22 Alec Hogg: Mmusi Maimane, the leader of BOSA. I’m Alec Hogg from BizNews.com.
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