I know I am going to be killed by the police – SAPS Whistleblower
Veteran SAPS whistleblower Patricia Morgan-Mashale is once again unable to leave a safe house that she has been using over the past two years. This after she received information that there had been a meeting between former Police Minister Bheki Cele, two Crime Intelligence generals, some people whose corruption she had exposed, as well as a foreign cyber expert who would allegedly instruct them in the use of illegal spyware equipment to pinpoint her exact location. Speaking to BizNews, Morgan-Mashale – who has endured three years of persecution – says: "I want everyone to know that if I die an unnatural death, that the police is responsible for that…I know I am going to be killed by the police." In response to this information, veteran violence- and police monitor Professor Mary De Haas has fired off a letter to Police Minister Senzo Mchunu to call for an immediate investigation into this reported meeting and into all acquisitions of surveillance equipment by the SAPS. "I am also calling on urgent action from Parliament to ensure adequate protection of bona fide whistleblowers, before they are killed."
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Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:03.84)
Police whistleblower Patricia Morgan-Mashale is once again unable to leave a safe house that she has been using over the past two years. But she is with us now. Welcome, Patricia.
Chris Steyn (00:23.072)
Patricia, tell us about the latest development. What has happened to you now?
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (00:28.654)
The latest development is that I receive information on Saturday that there was a meeting between Cele and two Crime Intelligence generals whose names are known to me and as well as another few people whom I exposed in my public platforms on Facebook, the corruption that I exposed. And I received a message from my reliable sources that always give me the information that they had a meeting to try and trace my location through the – you remember there was illegal spyware equipment that SAPS procured in China – and apparently there was also a Chinese national at a meeting who is going to assist them with the equipment because they don't know how the equipment…no-one of them every received training on that equipment. So, that gentleman is going to assist them to try and locate them.
Chris Steyn (01:52.832)
Patricia, what could be behind this now?
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (01:57.021)
I think the fact that I have been…Remember the last time when I had an interview with you, I have exposed that military camps. And I didn't, I never stopped because, as I said, I'm a whistleblower and even when there is corruption or crimes committed, I am going to exp- since I cannot report it to, to a police station or any police officer because they still, they are still not, acting on the information that I have been giving, given them. I have given the information to the National Commissioner. I have proof that me and Professor De Haas have been giving information to the National Commissioner. It never even acknowledged on the emails, on the WhatsApp messages, neither me or Mary's complaint that was sent to him. He never acknowledged it.
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (03:09.892)
So I decided that if there's the case, because remember I am complaining here about senior, top officials in SAPS. I am not just complaining about junior officers. I am complaining about top officials. So, I decided if there is a case and he's not interested to act on the information, then I'm going to expose it on my public platform – and I am going to name the people who are implicated in this corruption. And I also name Cele in cases that were opened against Cele; the dockets are just somewhere…No-one knows whether these dockets are still active because not court has ever withdrawn these dockets. So, Cele's name is also on my public platform. So, I believe it is because of this public information and people that I have been naming in this corruption, that is the reason that they want to silence me because I am getting information on a daily basis and I am sharing information on a daily basis.
Chris Steyn (04:10.358)
Patricia, I don't know how you keep going. have suffered three years of persecution. And in July, you were finally acquitted of an apparently malicious charge. But now I understand that your lawyer can't get a copy of a judgment.
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (04:30.417)
Remember the judgment was delivered on the 30th of July and we have been struggling since then to get the copy of the judgment from court. Our lawyers have been sent from pillar to post. There was some stage when they were told that the docket cannot be relocated. So since then, we are struggling to get the court. Their lawyers cannot do anything without a judgment. They need a judgment to proceed with criminal cases against the implicated people. They need their judgment to proceed with civil litigation. And they need their judgment to proceed also with criminal cases against the prosecutor were responsible for this malicious prosecution because she was also defeating the ends of justice.
We received a message last week from a prosecutor at court saying that all prosecutors have been instructed to not handle all my dockets. My dockets will be handled directly by the DPP. All my dockets is in the office of the DPP. So I believe the DPP is sitting with a judgment and the DPP is refusing to hand over the judgment to my lawyer because that is the instruction that was given to people at court to not handle my matters.
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (06:05.917)
If I want something, I must write an email or letter to the DPA. I did send this voice note from the prosecutor that was sent to my husband to Prof De Haas. And she said she will take it up with not even the NPA, because the NPA, I have been complaining to the NPA since forever. There's an advocate, the NPA will keep on referring our complaints back to the very people that we are complaining about…
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (06:41.185)
And even Professor De Haas…he replied in a very arrogant manner to her to say that she's not my legal representative. I must get a lawyer to communicate with them. Imagine lawyers cost money. So to get a simple judgement, I must now go and pay a lawyer to write them an application to get a judgement.
Chris Steyn (07:04.992)
Patricia, since our last interview, have you been contacted by State Security or by any senior police officers to make affidavits or to give them further information?
Patricia Morgan-Mashale
I have been contacted by State Security, but I will not mention the name because I don't want to jeopardise their investigation. I have been contacted by State Security, and have given them…
Chris Steyn (07:33.736)
And anybody from the Independent Investigative Directorate. IPID?
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (07:38.714)
No. I mus… No, they have not contacted me. I have been in contact with them because all the complaints that I send to the National Commissioner, I also submitted it to IPID. They at least acknowledged a receipt and I can see they forwarded the complaints to an investigation officer. Just today I received another acknowledgement to say that they received my complaints and they have appointed an investigation officer to investigate.
Chris Steyn (08:11.094)
But now, Professor De Haas has advised you not to meet with any police official or any State Security official privately or in person. And that should any other affidavits be required from you that they should get them through your lawyer.
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (08:27.995)
Yes, because I was supposed to meet with two brigadiers regarding the complaint that Prof De Haas sent to Parliament
…Chris Steyn (08:40.904)
about your treatment. Yeah.
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (09:13.951)
About my treatment, yes. And they just wanted a supporting affidavit from me because she is the complainant in the matter. And it os funny that they should travel from Pretoria to Bloemfontein. So Prof. De Haas sent me…after we received that information that SAPS is trying to locate me, we decided that I am not going to jeopardise my safety by meeting with them. So, Prof De Haas sent an email earlier to them to tell them that they if really need that supporting affidavit because all the evidence is in the file that she sent to Parliament. I also don't understand why they need a supporting affidavit because she is the complainant – and I already confirmed that information on all my social media platforms…and all the complaints that I already sent even to Parliament. I sent complaints to the Special Investigative Unit. I sent complaints to the National Commissioner. I mean they can use that information because I am the one who is the complainant there to support her complaint. So, I am not going to meet with them. She already sent them an email to inform them that that meeting is not going to take place.
Chris Steyn (10:12.182)
Professor De Haas has also written a letter to the Police Minister to ask him to urgently investigate this incident, this tracking incident that you have been tipped off about, Patricia. Do you have faith in the new Police Minister? I know you certainly didn't and don't have it in the previous one.
Patricia Morgan-Mashale
I never had faith in the previous Minister for obvious reasons. Remember I reported corruption as far back as 2018. So, I dearly would want to have faith in the current Minister. So, would want to give him the benefit of the doubt to see whether he is going to act or not…I mean there is a lot information that Prof De Haas and myself submitted to his office. So, I want to give him space to see if he is going to act on this information, and not judge him on the basis of what transpired between me and previous Minister. So, yes from now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Chris Steyn (11:29.11)
Well, I'm going to say something very chilling to you now. But I recently spoke to a police officer about your case, and he said to me that there were policemen taking bets on how you are going to die, whether it will be a natural death or in a car crash. I'm sure it's not the first time that you have heard that, Patricia.
Patricia Morgan-Mashale
No, it is not the first time. You know what I also know that I am not going to die a natural death…but I want everyone to know that if I die an unnatural death, that the police is responsible for that. I want everyone to know that. I know…Not knowing when gives me some kind of comfort… But I know I am going to be killed by the police
Chris Steyn (12:22.838)
You know, Patricia, every time I get a message from Professor De Haas, I go cold because I think something has happened to you. You must feel like a marked woman. It chills me to the bone that you're saying you know that you are going to die at the hands of the police. And yet you keep going.
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (12:44.753)
You know what, I had to make friends with reality. And I had to tell myself that as long as there's no action from the government, as long as there's no action from the president, I had to just make friends with reality that this is going to happen. It happened to Babita. The president was there. He knew. But they know who killed Babita. It happened to Armand. It is known that even the guy who killed Armand was released on bail. So, as long as the president is turning a blind eye…Now we just heard, I just read an article – I think it was two weeks ago – where they say there is a whistleblower hit squad which is consisting of police officers…So, the information is out there. Everyone knows about it. So, the information is out there. These people are known. The presidents reads newspapers, he is watching the news, he sees that there is a hitsquad who are killing whistleblowers, but as long as the president is condoning it, then we as whistleblowers must accept the reality and live with it. We don't have a choice.
Chris Steyn (14:10.58)
Patricia, if you could have your life over again or your career in the police over again, would you do it any differently? You have a family that's gone through immense trauma.
Patricia Morgan-Mashale (14:24.015)
I would do it, maybe I would have, if I would have watched a video of what was going to happen, even when I expose this corruption, I would have had some kind of doubts. But on the other hand, my conscience would not have allowed me to keep quiet. So, I would have done it, Chris, knowing that I might be killed in the process. Because, you know what, I am talking here about…if you can see what is currently happening in this country…as I said whistleblowers are being killed by a whistleblower hitsquad, I wouldn't have wanted my kids to grow up in a country where they don't have future because that is where we are heading if people cannot be standing up, talking out and just making a noise and making whistleblowing fashionable because I have a hashtag on Facebook and Twitter: Let's make whistleblowing fashionable. And I am proud to say that police officers are now making whistleblowing fashionable because now a lot of police officers…and there is a general from another province who called me and said to me 'Patricia, do you know what you caused?' And thought I had done something wrong, but he said no, you have made police officers stand up for the truth because of the way we are receiving complaints and information of corruption from police officers now…So, I am proud to say that at least made an impact. People are now not afraid anymore, although most of them choose to remain anonymous, but they are reporting; they are reporting to me. All the information that I am getting, I am getting from police officers. Not just from police officers; even from other government departments…
People die, people are being killed because of corruption, and families are mourning their loved ones, and we just decided to look the other way. People are now standing up, they are not looking the other way anymore. They are reporting this corruption, and I can safely tell you: something is happening in the police, something is happening…, something is happening in other government departments because whistleblowing has become fashionable.
Chris Steyn (17:34.794)
Thank you. That was whistleblower Patricia Morgan-Mashale speaking to BizNews about the mortal danger that she has lived in ever since she started exposing corruption, but vowing to continue. Thank you, Patricia, and I'm Chris Steyn.
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