War-of Words: Majozi responds to Mashaba
A war of words is raging between political economist Phumlani M. Majozi and ActionSA leader Herman Mashaba. In this interview with BizNews, Majozi responds to yesterday's interview with Mashaba in which he revealed that he had consulted lawyers over social media posts made by Majozi. In our interview, we ask Majozi whether he really believes that there is "not a single black politician" in the country "who stands for basic traditional values of hard work, personal responsibility, stronger business productivity, stronger families, law and order". We also also ask him why he labelled us at BizNews "clowns" after the Mashaba interview aired.
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Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:02.41)
A war of words is raging between political economist, Mr. Phumlani M Majozi and ActionSA leader, Mr. Harman Mashaba. Mr. Mashaba has consulted lawyers and he was on BizNews yesterday to tell us about it. Today, Mr. Majozi is here to exercise his right to reply. Welcome Phumlani and tell us how you feel about what Mr. Mashaba was saying yesterday.
Phumlani M. Majozi (00:35.135)
Hello, Chris. Thanks for inviting me to come to talk to you. I think this is the second or third time now I'm on BizNews.
I mean, I have been very disappointed by Mr. Mashaba. I am very, very disappointed. I had high regard for him. I had huge respect for Mr. Mashaba. And that is why in my book, Lessons from Past Heroes, I have an entire section about Mr. Mashaba, right? The work he has done for South Africa, where he comes from, right? This inspirational figure, this public figure really who emerged out of difficult Apartheid times to be a businessman, a black businessman, to see that transition, to be part of the transition in South Africa when we move from the Apartheid system of governance to our democracy. He was part of the process. He saw all of that. So he has been, in my life, one of the people I've really looked up to for a long time. And of course, he and I connected years back when he was affiliated with the Free Market Foundation, because I mean, as some of your viewers will know, I'm a passionate defender and a passionate fighter for human liberty or the ideas of a pro-market economy. So we met back then because we had, at the time, we had similar views on what needs to be done to really up, to move South Africa forward and address the challenges that we face of unemployment, of poverty, and so on. So I've always had great…I admired him a lot until recently …now where he is really going on a tangent that I cannot understand.
Now, Chris, I need to summarize things for you here on where Mashaba is angry with me. Right? I have, over the past few weeks or so, I gave a constructive criticism of his leadership. Right? It wasn't even, it wasn't even a, I wouldn't call it a criticism, right? It was more of an advice to say to him, look, Mr. Mashaba, you have held great values of pro-market, pro-liberty and non-racial for a non…you know, values that advocate for a non-racial South Africa. Avoid aligning yourself with these far Left EFF people and other people who are really on the far Left and are very divisive, advocate for a racially divisive society and perpetuate the idea that we as black people, we are still oppressed. The idea that we have no control. The idea that you know, the National Party, Chris, is still around, is somehow influencing things, you know, or at least we have white people who are basically in political corridors who are pushing for, you know, for the return of Apartheid or in some form, Apartheid advocates or advocates for an Apartheid way of governance, which is not true, right? We are a democracy, we have been a democracy for 30 years in this country. We are celebrating 30 years this year. We've been a democracy and black people, Chris, have been in charge of this country for over the past 30 years we are talking about since our democracy began, right? Black people, the black leadership have been in charge of fiscal policy in this country. Fiscal policy has been, it's been managed by black people, black people…
Phumlani M. Majozi (04:24.913)
since our democracy began, monetary policy has been managed by black people. Black people have been in control of monetary policy in this country over the past 30 years. The law and order institutions, they've been managed by black people. Black people are in control, right? You go to cities, towns, it's been black governance, right? So this idea that for some whatever reason, we must perpetuate the idea that, you know, black people are somehow still oppressed, that they are still these white people who are in charge or who are setting up our fate, who are masters of our destiny. That is totally, totally misleading. And the idea of thing of always using the Apartheid card, even in basic things around engagements on public policy, right? This idea that Phumlani, when he speaks about, he shows his…
Phumlani M. Majozi (05:22.719)
Phumlani, private citizen from KwaZulu-Natal, from the rural and townships of KwaZulu-Natal. He is raising his anger against Black politicians in this country who have been governing the country since 1994. He is raising his frustration and saying to them, look, you've got to get your act together. Now for him to come back now and assail me for that and attack me…
Phumlani M. Majozi (05:51.323)
and issue all these threats that is going to take me to court. Remember, I'm just a private citizen, by the way. I have no political interests of any sort. And he thinks that as a politician who is in charge of a party, a political party that has seats in our parliament, he thinks it's the right idea for him to run after people like us, right?
By the way, Chris, I've never said anything in the response in the post that I posted on X, I never spoke about Herman Mashaba directly. The post that has motivated him to say, look, I'm going to approach legal people or lawyers, whoever he wants to approach, it was never a direct message to Herman Mashaba. I spoke about why are we as people of Black people of South Africa accounting for more than 80%. How is it that we are not producing leaders who advocate for the basic traditional values of hard work, family, a promulgated economy, that kind of conservatism. In my observation, I don't see it. I'm an analyst. I've been analysing political affairs for 10 years now. I've written a book. I don't see that. I thought at some point, Herma Mashaba would be one of those people, but it's going on a different tangent, right? It wasn't about him. It was about my frustration about the leadership, black leadership. Yeah.
Chris Steyn (07:26.23)
Phumlani, may I just interrupt you there and read one of your posts to you? And I know this is a post that Mr. Mashaba found very hurtful. You said, you wrote black people account for more than 80 % in South Africa. Yet there is not a single black politician who stands for basic traditional values of hard work, personal responsibility, stronger business productivity, stronger families, law and order, not a single. And you had an exclamation mark there. Do you really believe that there is not a single black politician in this country who has these attributes?
Phumlani M. Majozi (08:11.217)
No, I don't. I don't. That's my observation.
Chris Steyn (08:12.746)
But you wrote that. But you wrote it.
Phumlani M. Majozi
Yes, I wrote that. Yes, I wrote that down. I don't believe there is none. Right. And that is this is not an attack on black people. He tends this thing to be about black people. I'm attacking black people. No, I'm not. I'm talking about we are not producing. We don't have…I'm saying we do not have a black political leader who represents that package. Right. Those ideas. We don't have that. We don't have our Vivek Ramaswamy in South Africa.
Phumlani M. Majozi (08:40.617)
The person who speaks about strongly pro-market values, strongly pro-family, pro-personal responsibility, hard work. We are not seeing that amongst the Black leaders. All I'm seeing in our Black leaders are this thing of always perpetuating the narrative that for some reason, we as Black people are not in control of our fate, right?
You have this narrative that one of them is that, you know, white people are still in control of the economy. Chris, that is not factual. Whites people are not in control of the economy. And for me, when I say that, I'm not saying that to defend or be an agent of white people. I am saying that because I don't want such a message to go to where I come from in rural KwaZulu-Natal. To go to my, where I come from in the township in Kwa-Zulu-Natal, right to tell young black people that somehow whites people are still in control. For me, I think that is damaging. When you should be saying to them, you've got the, we are a democracy now, you've got what is presented in front of you, make use of it, right? And hold your leaders to account. This narrative is damaging, you know, people like, I mean, Mashaba accuses me of being an agent or somehow being paid to say the things I do to defend some white interests. No, I care about black people. And I'm saying to black people, the message is very clear. And that is we are the masters of our destiny. The idea that there are still people who are still in control of us, that is totally false. You know, white people are largely a middle class. They lost political power long time ago, right? I mean, this thing, these threats that white people are going to bring back Apartheid. Even that is totally misleading. These threats that by people like Herman Mashaaba, he goes around and saying, you have white people in this country who are really hard at work, political leadership to implement the Apartheid system. That is totally misleading and damaging to black people. And those are the people I'm fighting for, right? Because remember, Chris, black people are the ones mostly affected by the levels of poverty in the country, right? According to Human Rights Commission, about 64% of black people, they live in poverty.
Phumlani M. Majozi (11:05.801)
Black people, when you look at the unemployment rate, the black unemployment rate, it's unemployment rate, it's higher than the national average. I'm talking about the recent second quarter statistics of this year, where you have unemployment rates of black people about 38%, you have the national unemployment rates of about 34%. So poverty, unemployment, that is what's impacting people.
You talk about the issues of crime, Chris, criminality in this country. In large part, it's black people who are victims, right? Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, the police commissioner in KwaZulu-Natal, he's highlighting…these are his words: The problem is the black men in South Africa, right? We need to talk about these issues.
You look at the rates of fatherlessness, right? If you have only 32% of black kids growing up without their fathers. When look at the numbers, Chris, from 1993 up until today, fatherlessness nationally, it has risen, right? It was just about 40% in 1993, 1994. Today, it's more than, it's about 63%, right? This is fatherlessness in the country. So all of these things, and we do know what research shows around the world, the impact of fatherlessness as a contributor to things like crime as well to things like kids dropping out of school, teenage pregnancies, boys becoming criminals, all these things that have an impact on our society.
So these values, I want to talk about these values, Chris. I want my Black leaders to focus on these values because the states are clear that we need to push ahead.
Chris Steyn (12:48.79)
I hear you, I hear you, Phumlani, but from where – I'm sorry to interrupt you – but from where I'm sitting, I don't agree with your statement that there are, that there's not a single black politician in this country who actually espouses those values from where I'm sitting.
Phumlani M. Majozi (13:06.803)
Yeah, but then that's that's your opinion. That's your analysis. Right. And probably because some of the elements in my statement or the values that I put in them, maybe, maybe you agree that maybe one of them is there, maybe. It's not that I'm saying there's not a single politician who has that package. We don't have our Vivek Ramaswamy here. And that is my opinion. Right. It's not an insult to this idea that if you say X out of, you know, out of the black politicians, they do not they don't have these certain values.
Phumlani M. Majozi (13:36.831)
There's nothing wrong with that, right? For me, I'm speaking more about black politicians because I am more concerned about black people in this country, right? Just as Mr. Herman Moshaba is, but I think Mr. Herman Moshaba is wrong. I know he and I are concerned about the issues of black people, but it takes a wrong direction and the wrong approach. And it doesn't talk about the actual problems that people are facing, right? And in my observation, In my assessment, I don't see a politician who represents those values. You think you do, but I do not. That's just my observation. We can do better in terms of producing leaders. Yeah.
Chris Steyn (14:18.23)
I just want to ask you after we had the interview with Mr. Mashaba yesterday, you called us at BizNews clowns. So what's your definition of a clown? What makes me a clown, Phumlani.
Phumlani M. Majozi (14:33.373)
No, I was upset because you bring Mr. Herman Mashaba on the show to talk about me and I'm not there. For me, in my view, firstly, the first thing is that if you have a private citizen who raises such issues on the internet and says that there isn't the right values being presented by black leaders in the country, you have to bring me on the show. This is just my view. You rather bring me than the head of a political party in this country, a politician who says that he's in a process of putting some legal documents together to run after me as a private citizen for expressing my opinion. So for me, if you are…really the right thing for you that you should have done as BizNews is to invite me rather than Herman Mashaba to talk about me. If you invite Mr. Herman Mashaba, then it's best that you have me as well, you know, on the show. I don't have an issue with debating Mr. Herman Mashaba on the platform. In fact, I would love to engage him on these issues, right? So he can tell me why must I be happy about the black leadership in this country, given where we are, right? You know, why must I be happy? He has to, and what I dislike about what he's doing is that he paints everything as, you know, I'm attacking black people. No, I'm talking about the black leaders who are not advocating for the values in my perspective. I have a right to say that in my perspective, they are not representing the values we need as a society. In a democratic South Africa, I do have a right to do that. So your platform, and I'm disappointed to Alec, who I've known for years now, that he could do something like that. Bring me, in fact, I am sitting here because now I said that. Probably if I had not said that, you would have never invited me, right? But…
Chris Steyn (16:22.078)
I don't think you should make that assumption as to what we were going to do. Because I did invite you this morning and here you are and you have replied to Mr. Mashaba's statements of yesterday and we thank you for that.
Phumlani M. Majozi (16:26.151)
I am assuming. I doubt. I'm saying I doubt. I doubt. But that what was after I posted that right so I wouldn't know if you would have done it if I had not posted that. So for me you should have people like Mashaba, bring people like us…these are serious conversations. Chris, bring people like us so we can engage politicians like him and Mashaba in these issues where they go around spreading the narrative it's Apartheid, it's the Apartheid system, Apartheid is still alive. Bring people like us to say look let's focus on fixing South Africa because that's the way forward is to fix South Africa.
Chris Steyn (17:12.192)
Thank you. That was political economist Mr. Phumlani M Majozi speaking to BizNews and I'm Chris Steyn.
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