André Pienaar: Sibanye Stillwater, the future of nuclear energy, space investments, and cybersecurity
André Pienaar, CEO of C5 Capital, shares insights into small modular reactors, the potential of nuclear energy for South Africa, and space exploration. He also highlights C5's investments in cybersecurity, including Starlink and IronNet, emphasizing the importance of innovative founders and global technological advancements in shaping the future.
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Extended transcript of the interview
Alec Hogg (00:11.446):
News has got a number of WhatsApp channels, and one of the busier ones is the Energy Channel. There's a gentleman called Dr. Kelvin Kemm who keeps things going with his discussions about nuclear. There's lots of interest in nuclear, and it's coming back strongly around the world and, indeed, in South Africa. But a big breakthrough, I would say, today is a strategic alliance that's been secured by C5 Capital, an interesting company. We'll find out more about them in a moment.
And Sibanye Stillwater, who have piles of uranium as by-products from the old gold mines running from Taney States to Beatrix. We'll find out what the strategic alliance means.
Alec Hogg (00:57.888):
Andre, lovely to catch up with you, and I'm really looking forward to you coming to our conference in March next year in Hermanus. It's going to be an opportunity for you to tell members of the BizNews Tribe a little bit more about the way you're seeing the world. We'll talk about C5 Capital in some detail later and about you, but let's start off with this announcement you made today.
Alec Hogg (01:25.108):
You have a strategic alliance with Sibanye Stillwater. I know Neil Froneman at Sibanye has for a long time been looking for energy independence, but on the other hand, he's also got a heck of a lot of uranium sitting in those dumps of his. So, what does this alliance entail?
Andre Pienaar (01:45.364):
It's unusual for a growth investment firm like ours to form a partnership with a global mining company like Sibanye Stillwater. But the nuclear renaissance is enabling all kinds of new and imaginative partnerships. We very much value Sibanye Stillwater's deep bench of nuclear expertise, specifically uranium expertise.
As you say, the company has some really outstanding assets that could potentially become uranium-producing in the future. At the moment, the uranium market is constrained, and everyone is looking for additional supply. Since we invest across all of the nuclear value chain, having a partner like Sibanye Stillwater is enormously valuable.
Alec Hogg (02:37.506):
Does the partnership extend to potentially creating a small modular energy plant for Sibanye, given that they have been trying to achieve energy independence themselves for a long time?
Andre Pienaar (02:55.678):
Well, that certainly is a possibility for the future. It's not on the cards right now, but that certainly is an area of potential for the future. The mining sector is a natural off-taker for advanced nuclear energy generation. And as you say, a micronuclear reactor is ideally suited for servicing and providing clean energy to mines. I think you're absolutely right that, in the future, advanced nuclear energy will be transformative for the mining sector, both in terms of its net-zero footprint but also in terms of energy independence and security.
Alec Hogg (03:33.016):
Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of deep-level mining that has been abandoned because of the erratic electricity supply in South Africa. Who knows what could happen there? Neil's got a long history with uranium. I recall going with him to see Africana leases, which later became part of, I think, Uranium One, which he ran, and then became part of the Gupta empire. I think it's…
It's not being mined at the moment, but at one point, uranium was doing so well that they were mining it underground at Africa Analysis. Are we getting anywhere near that situation being economically viable again?
Andre Pienaar (04:21.203):
Yes, as you say, Neil is one of the most seasoned mining executives when it comes to uranium. He's built an exceptional team and recently appointed Greg Cochran to lead a new uranium division for Sibanye Stillwater. Yes, the price of uranium has gone up considerably—about 233% over the last two years—and currently trades at just above $80 on the spot market.
Given how constrained this market is becoming due to a range of factors—rising demand for clean energy driven by artificial intelligence, the number of nuclear plants under construction worldwide, and geopolitics constraining supply—I think there's a lot of scope for the price of uranium to grow further. That, of course, will increase the profitability of uranium mining and enable assets that were previously not considered viable to become viable again.
Alec Hogg (05:27.672):
But I guess with the assets that Froneman has in his portfolio now, he doesn't need to go underground. Just give us an understanding, if you would, how much uranium is in those former gold dumps that were mined in the past as a byproduct of gold mining.
Andre Pienaar (05:34.353):
No, he doesn't.
Andre Pienaar (05:50.108):
Between the two assets he has, the Cook mine and the Beatrix mine, there's about 60 million tons, which is a very considerable amount of uranium. As you say, it's on the surface and doesn't require deep-level mining. So, these tailing dumps can be mined very cost-effectively.
Alec Hogg (06:09.538):
So, is that part of this whole project between the two of you? You will find the offtake, and he will do the production?
Andre Pienaar (06:20.68):
We are investing across all of the nuclear value chains, so we invest from raw uranium through to the nuclear fuel cycle, through to advanced nuclear reactors, and to nuclear applications like nuclear medicine, all the way to nuclear fusion. Within the scope of those investments, the demand for raw uranium is significant, and there's a need for secure and cost-efficient supply.
In a market where prices in the spot market are rising and supply is constrained, having a partner like Sibanye, who is developing a world-class uranium division and has two ready assets, could be really valuable in the future.
Alec Hogg (07:08.236):
Just a little more about C5 Capital. It's an interesting company. It is South African, as we can hear, but it is very much a global operation.
Andre Pienaar (07:19.528):
Yes, I'm very much South African—born in the Eastern Cape and grew up along the Cape coastline. My heart is still in South Africa, even though I have an international business career. I'm very grateful for what Business News does for South Africa, for accurate reporting and relevant insights.
C5 is a global investment firm with offices in Washington, London, and Vienna, Austria. We invest globally, with a focus on three areas that are closely interrelated: cybersecurity, space, and advanced nuclear energy. I've recently launched an energy security fund that focuses across all of the nuclear value chain. We see nuclear energy as the most important energy source for the 21st century and for future energy security.
Alec Hogg (08:19.818):
It's also got a bit of a bad reputation, though, Andre. You being South African will know what happened when Rosatom, Zuma, and the Guptas were involved. I'm sure there are clean parts of it, but is that reputation well-earned?
Andre Pienaar (08:28.05):
Yes.
Andre Pienaar (08:41.797):
I think the South African history with Jacob Zuma is very peculiar and particular. Of course, earlier in my career, when I was involved with the Scorpions, I was part of the investigation into Jacob Zuma. What Mr. Zuma tried to do is not indicative of the nuclear industry as a whole. The transaction he attempted to structure with Putin was perhaps one of the most corrupt transactions in the world at the time. The technology that Russia was trying to force on South Africa was really aged, decrepit generation-three nuclear reactors. So, it was a bad deal overall for the country, and I think that left a bad taste in South Africa's view of the nuclear industry.
But that's not how the nuclear industry operates globally. The nuclear industry is highly regulated—perhaps one of the most regulated industries in the world, both nationally and internationally. If you look at the track record of the nuclear industry in South Africa, Koeberg has an impeccable safety record and is in compliance with both world-class regulation and international standards.
Alec Hogg (10:03.65):
So, if we have so much uranium in South Africa, as you've just outlined at Sibanye and presumably other suppliers as well with old gold mines, why are we not— or are we—a candidate for building more nuclear reactors here, in a way that we don't repeat what we saw at Kusile and Medupi, where they became a plundering pot for the politically influential?
Andre Pienaar (10:33.63):
Yes, South Africa has one of the largest uranium reserves in Africa, and there's huge potential to scale and grow the uranium mining industry here. As you correctly say, there's scope for vertical integration. If we have substantive uranium production in South Africa, there's no reason why we can't create a domestic fuel cycle and integrate that with additional nuclear generation capacity.
The nuclear industry is still very viable in the country. Koeberg continues to make a valuable contribution to the country's energy generation and clean energy
supply, providing most of the energy for the Western Cape region and about 10% of the energy nationally.
Then, of course, there was the Pebble Bed Program, which was a victim of Jacob Zuma. The Pebble Bed Program, back in 2010-2011, was at the cutting edge of advanced nuclear technology worldwide. Fortunately, despite the fact that Zuma sabotaged that program in favor of his corrupt Russian deal, much of the value chain from the Pebble Bed Program still exists in South Africa and could be reestablished and revitalized, as the Minister for Electricity, Minister Sputler-Romocopla, has outlined over the past year.
Alec Hogg (12:06.208):
That's interesting. So, the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor can be dusted off?
Andre Pienaar (12:09.988):
Absolutely. All the investment, innovation, and know-how South Africa created in that program can be revitalized, and it could potentially be worth billions of rand for the country.
Alec Hogg (12:25.4):
So, what needs to happen for that to occur?
Andre Pienaar (12:29.246):
Well, clear policy from the government, which we're now seeing from the government of national unity. We're seeing clear statements around the nuclear industry, recognizing nuclear as a reliable, clean energy source and an investable sector. In addition to that, extending the life of Koeberg, as it's a very valuable asset, and creating scope for new projects. Some of these will be government-led, some will be public-private partnerships, and some, like our project, will be entirely private sector-funded and led.
Alec Hogg (13:17.378):
So, the relationship with Sibanye is part of what you're saying with "our project." Would that then move into the next level and include something along the lines of an electricity producer?
Andre Pienaar (13:32.69):
Yes, we completed a feasibility study last year for a private-sector-funded SMR network for South Africa, and the results were very positive and encouraging. We are doing everything we can to revitalize the nuclear energy ecosystem across the country, and uranium producers like Sibanye Stillwater play a crucial role in that ecosystem, both domestically and potentially internationally.
Alec Hogg (14:09.602):
How big would that reactor be?
Andre Pienaar (14:15.092):
So, small modular reactors range from 18 megawatts and upwards, and you can modularize them. You can combine them to reach up to 320 or maybe even 400 megawatts. So, you would need four of these on a modularized basis to match the capacity of one of the Koeberg reactors. You can also go all the way down to a micro reactor that produces about one megawatt. There's a lot of variability and scope, and the great strength of this technology is that it can be tailored to the needs of the off-taker. You mentioned a mine earlier, but similarly, you could create a reactor specifically for an industrial plant, like X-Energy has done in Texas, or for a data center. This plays to South Africa's strengths because the country is the leading hub for data centers in Africa, with the largest concentration of data centers on the continent. Therefore, it's naturally well placed to be a leader in both clean energy through nuclear power and in artificial intelligence.
Alec Hogg (15:49.46):
It sounds a bit science fiction, but clearly, it's science fact. If you can go all the way down to one-megawatt reactors, what about safety though? Because that was always the big issue in the public domain.
Andre Pienaar (16:06.686):
Yes, fortunately, safety issues have been addressed. The micro and small reactor models we use at the generation three level come from the armed forces and have been used safely in submarines and aircraft carriers in kinetic environments for decades without incident. These reactors are entirely safe. The new generation four reactors have the ability to automatically shut down if there's any difficulty or concern. Moreover, with tricerfuel—or what we used to call the Pebble Bed Fuel Model in South Africa—where enriched uranium is encased in a three-layered graphite ball, there is no proliferation risk. It's very hard to proliferate this kind of fuel. Also, the amount of byproduct produced by the reactor is significantly reduced. The byproduct can be stored on-site and is a useful resource because you can mine it for radioisotopes for nuclear medicine. South Africa remains a leader in nuclear medicine worldwide.
Alec Hogg (17:24.28):
What drew you to this field? Indeed, what drew you to have an investment company, given your background with the Scorpions?
Andre Pienaar (17:36.308):
Well, I enjoy building things, trying new things, and making a difference. I've had the good fortune of working with people who are highly accomplished in the financial services and investment fields—people like Robin Rennick, who was a mentor of mine for many years, and the Fleming family in New York, who built AEA Capital. I was also involved with the Stenbeck family, who acquired my consulting business. Working with such accomplished investors was inspiring and encouraged me to try my own hand at it, even though I didn't come from an investment background. It's something only a full-hearted South African would attempt: to build an investment firm from scratch with more of an operational and entrepreneurial background than an investment one. Fortunately, I've had great mentors and partners, and now, approaching our 10th anniversary, we manage about half a billion dollars in assets and continue to grow.
Alec Hogg (18:52.502):
We haven't even touched on space yet, which we must. Nuclear and space—energy, rather than just nuclear—what is it about those areas that appeal to you?
Andre Pienaar (19:10.654):
In South Africa, we grow up with this beautiful starlit sky, which at night looks like polished diamonds on a velvet cloth. You can't help but be inspired by the Southern Cross and the beautiful constellations visible at night. That always drew me as a child—I had a little telescope and a book on the constellations. As a kid, I also watched programs like Buck Rogers and Star Wars, which further fueled my interest. I've always been fascinated by the beauty of the sky and the mystery of the universe. That's why I became interested in investing in space—especially since so much of cybersecurity infrastructure is now moving into space. Starlink is a prime example—Elon Musk's constellation of low-orbit satellites, which now plays a decisive role in digital communications worldwide. With so much cybersecurity infrastructure moving into space, I became interested in space investments. Once you're in space, you realize there are really only two sources of energy: solar, which the International Space Station uses, and nuclear. Nuclear is the only energy source that enables us to go faster in space. With nuclear fission, we could cut travel time to Mars from six months to three. Historically, it took about six months to sail from the Netherlands to the Cape in the 17th century, and it still takes about the same amount of time to get to Mars. But with nuclear fission, we could cut that time in half. Additionally, if we plan to return to the moon permanently, as NASA does with the Artemis program, nuclear energy is the only solution to get through the lunar night in good order. Nuclear also plays a role in planetary exploration. Our portfolio company, Axiom Space, is building the successor to the International Space Station, and we are exploring the possibility of including an SMR or micro nuclear reactor on the new station to complement the solar energy that powers the existing station.
Alec Hogg (21:35.646):
So you've given us a glimpse of one of your investments. Can you share some others? These seem wildly different from typical investment discussions.
Andre Pienaar (22:04.036):
Axiom is a very exciting investment. Axiom is building the successor to the International Space Station and has two contracts with NASA to design and build new spacesuits. The last spacesuits were designed in the 20th century, and now, of course, astronauts are a much more diverse group—no longer just former fighter pilots. There are now older astronauts, astronauts of different genders, and Axiom has recently revealed a new spacesuit designed in partnership with Prada, which will be used for the Artemis moon landings. Axiom's work is very exciting because it's about how humans live and operate in space—about research, development, light manufacturing, cloud computing, and energy generation in space. There is huge potential in the space economy. With Elon Musk now playing a prominent role in the US space sector, working alongside President Trump, the profile of the space industry will continue to grow.
Alec Hogg (23:35.51):
What other investments does C5 have?
Andre Pienaar (23:37.722):
We also invest in cybersecurity. We have cutting-edge cybersecurity companies that work closely with Microsoft. For example, we have one of the leading Microsoft partners in managed services, which operates security operations centers to protect the cybersecurity of major corporations, non-profits, and governments. We also have a cybersecurity solution called IronNet, which we deployed in defense of Ukraine. IronNet helps allies fight together in cyberspace and defend against Russia's cyberattacks. This collaboration is essential for Ukraine, allowing them to share intelligence with allies like the United Kingdom, the US, and other NATO members. We invest in many exciting and innovative companies, but ultimately, it's not about the technology—it's about the founders. These people are unique, often with unusual minds and personalities. What they have in common is resilience, a drive to make the world a better place, and innovative solutions that they believe can change things for the better.
Alec Hogg (25:02.392):
Andre, before we go, I'd love your thoughts on Starlink. It's been a political hot potato here in South Africa, but it has so many potential benefits across the continent. There's a strong lobby from internet incumbents like MTN and Vodacom, and Starlink is seen as a cheaper and more efficient alternative. This has kept it out of the country. Do you think this will change now that Elon Musk has met with South African President Cyril Ramaphosa? What can the public do to advocate for this?
Andre Pienaar (26:00.788):
I think Starlink is inevitable. It's widespread, and governments can't really stop it from coming. It's hard to regulate or keep it out of a market, so Starlink will definitely come to South Africa. It's just a matter of time.
Alec Hogg (26:27.532):
We look forward to that day, especially in rural areas, where it can't come fast enough. We also look forward to seeing you at the business conference and hearing about your first nuclear project in South Africa. Do you have any kind of timeline on when we might hear about the go-ahead?
Andre Pienaar (26:52.954):
We are currently in negotiations with the government about next steps following our feasibility study. We had a very good visit from the Minister for Electricity to Washington, DC, and positive discussions there. I'm confident the government will support something that helps solve South Africa's energy poverty and could also be a major source of employment, economic growth, and potentially play a role in the African energy export market.
Alec Hogg (27:26.006):
Andre Pienaar is the CEO of C5 Capital. I'm Alec Hogg from BizNews.com.
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