With the African National Congress (ANC) turning 113 today, United Independent Movement (UIM) President Neil De Beer – who spent 34 years in the party – takes BizNews readers through the fall of the oldest liberation movement in the world: He says Vice President Paul Mashatile being chased out of house in Khayelitsha this week is symbolic of how “broken” the party is. De Beer lists the times major cracks appeared in the party: from the incarceration of two ANC stalwarts, United Democratic Movement (UDM) leader Alan Boesak and MK Commander Tony Yengeni, for fraud; the contestation of the leadership of former president Thabo Mbeki; the Zuma cabal’s “slaughter” of the ANC’s principles; the collapse of the Youth League following the departure of Julius Malema; the “fiscal abuse” brought about by the formation of factions; and the party’s failure to transition form a liberation movement into a successful government. The ANC of today, says De Beer, “is ripped apart, it’s destroyed, it’s sunk, it has rust, it has enemies, it is internally and externally being slaughtered piece by piece. And that’s where we are with this carcass. What they’re to celebrate…, God only knows.”
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Edited transcript of the Interview
Chris Steyn (00:02.532)
The African National Congress turns 113 today. We speak to United Independent Movement President who spent 34 years in the African National Congress. Welcome, Neil.
Neil De Beer (00:19.472)
Chris, good to be back. Happy New Year. All the happy’s. With the amount of people emailing us to say, “When are you back?” it feels good to just do the snippet. Obviously back on Sunday now, the New Year. And I look forward to a very busy BizNews every Sunday on this platform, keeping two things in mind—only the truth, and blatantly so. So, good to see you.
Chris Steyn (00:48.942)
You too. Yesterday, Deputy President Paul Mashatile was chased out of a house in Khayelitsha. How symbolic is that of the state of the party?
Neil De Beer (01:03.046)
Yeah, symbolic and tragic. I’ve now seen that video go viral, and Chris, I think the mood is summarised by that one man carrying his child into his mother’s house. We now find out that the reason is that he was, in a way, abused by the security personnel—again Vice President Paul Mashatile’s security detail in the news. Afterwards, he tries to calm the situation and explain to the mother and the son that he apologises. But the mere fact that the second most senior citizen in the ANC is asked to leave an ANC stalwart’s house summarises it to the point where we now know that this party, founded in 1912 and 113 years old today, is broken. That is as clear as that.
Chris Steyn (02:12.378)
Now, Neil, you were still in the inner circle of the party when the cracks started showing. Tell us what first alerted you to the downward spiral.
Neil De Beer (02:23.514)
Well, I wouldn’t say it’s a thriller of a journey—a trilogy of mishaps—but Chris, you’ve got to go back. I think being a person that loves history, you must look at where this party comes from. It’s a 113-year journey. It was founded in 1912, as of 8 January, and funny enough, it was founded in Mangaung, in Bloemfontein. It wasn’t called the ANC then; it was the South African Native National Congress. It was an entity formed to amalgamate all structures in 1912 to fight for black liberation.
What a journey, because in 1955, it adopted what we now call the Freedom Charter in Soweto. If you look at our current Constitution, there are elements clearly inspired by the Freedom Charter.
The unification of liberation movements and the Mandela phase represented global recognition. The ANC became one of the largest liberation movements in the world. Today, it remains the oldest liberation movement globally.
Fast forward to 1994—freedom came as a surprise. I say this because the ANC wasn’t ready. CODESA caught them off guard. The National Party under Roelf Meyer and FW de Klerk were prepared, but the ANC was still struggling to bring its cadres home to negotiate.
Neil De Beer (04:50.234)
But that era—no matter anyone’s opinion—was the golden era of the ANC. Nelson Mandela became a global icon, won the Nobel Peace Prize, and shared it with FW de Klerk.
The South African passport in 1994 was one of the most accepted in the world. That five-year period was called the golden era of democracy in this country.
But the cracks started with the incarceration of two ANC stalwarts. Alan Boesak, a UDF icon, was jailed for financial irregularities. Then Tony Yengeni, an MK commander, faced the same fate. Both men were iconic figures within the ANC, but their imprisonment exposed vulnerabilities within the party.
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Neil De Beer (06:53.026)
That was the start—the belly of the beast being exposed. While the golden era offered hope, it couldn’t patch those cracks. The justice system jailed people for fraud and corruption, showing that no one was untouchable.
Then Mandela stepped down after one term. Thabo Mbeki took over, but nothing about the ANC’s structure or ideology changed. The ship remained the same, only the captain was new.
Neil De Beer (08:08.250)
The real turning point for me was the arms deal scandal. Tony Yengeni’s direct involvement in the weapons procurement process, alongside the broader allegations of corruption, highlighted systemic rot. It became evident that the ANC was no longer the golden entity it once was.
Chris Steyn (08:43.386)
Now, Neil, what was the catalyst for you to turn your back on the ANC?
Neil De Beer (08:52.346)
Yeah, Chris, you know, I’ve explained this so many times to people. Make no mistake, when I was a young man and left school, I did what I did for the National Party. There’s no denying that—it’s my history. I went straight from school to the army, and I went to go fight. You know, Volk en Vaderland. Ons moet vir julle donner. Because that was the enemy, you know? We had to fight the Red Gevaar—the Communists, the Anti-Christ. So I went from the school desk to Angola. I gave my two years there. We fought. Many didn’t come back. So, I’m a war veteran of the Apartheid era.
After that, I joined the policing agencies, as you know, because we had to keep this going—to protect ourselves. Now, there’s a lot of denialists out there, Chris. Sometimes I tether on calling them cowards when I tell them, “Hey, don’t hide away if you were supporting the National Party. Don’t hide away because you attended Eugène Terre’Blanche’s meetings in halls. Don’t deny the fact that you were an absolute White Supremacist. It’s you! Stop denying it! You hated them! You fought in the wars! You were there! You were supporting Apartheid! Be proud in the sense of being truthful!” Because what everybody does now is they keep quiet. Het jy vir die Nasionale Party gestem?
Neil De Beer (10:34.16)
Het jy vir die Nasionale Party gestem? Did you go to the AWB meetings? No? Now, it seems everybody was Helen Suzman’s follower. No, you weren’t. It’s part of history, and a part of fixing history is when you don’t deny it. You say, “Yes, in those days, I supported it.” Chris, I supported it. I supported it so much that in the propaganda, I gave two years of my life to go fight and keep the National Party system alive. I can’t deny it—I’ve got photos. Army. So, that’s it, Chris.
But what happened to me—and there’s a book out there called Undercover with Mandela’s Spies, which explains extensively my journey—was going from school, into the army, into the policing service, and then, Chris, that sporadic change where I found out some things about Mandela. Stuff that was hidden from us as uniformed members. And I made that sporadic change to the side that we cannot continue fighting against this onslaught and defend Apartheid anymore.
I realised, as a young man, that our leaders were surrendering.
Neil De Beer (12:01.338)
The generals were walking over. It was my decision to then say, “Well, if this country, de facto, is going to be taken over by the ANC, to whom will the ANC speak?” To whom will they talk? If Nelson Mandela sits in a lounge and says, “Tomorrow morning, we’re going to enact ten new laws that will affect white South Africans,” Chris, to whom would he talk? Who would be the reference to say, “But Neil, jy’s gebore op ’n plaas, you’re a white South African. What do you think would happen if we do that?” And that’s what happened.
We formed; I walked, and we joined the peaceful transition. And, Chris, that was the reason I joined—because of Mandela’s relationship and reconciliation.
But then we went through presidents and eras. Slowly but surely, after Mbeki, the Zuma cabal slaughtered the ANC’s principles. We went through Zuma, then into Cyril, and that’s when I realised, Chris, that as much as I had defended the Apartheid system in my youth, I was now defending the ANC for basically the same scenarios: breaking trust, destroying what they stood for, destroying the Mandela dream, and sacrificing the Freedom Charter.
Neil De Beer (14:04.142)
And again, Chris, you can say what you want. I’m a man of principle. I’m a man of honour. I am loyal to my country. When I realised that this ANC is no longer the Luthuli House, the Mandela, the Walter Sisulu, or the Govan Mbeki era, I decided to leave and fight them. Because injustice remains injustice, no matter the colour of your t-shirt or the emblem of your party. And that’s why I left.
Chris Steyn (14:15.664)
Neil, we’ve spoken about the cracks, but who or what do you think has done the most damage to the party? Who can be credited—if that’s the right word—for breaking it?
Neil De Beer (14:28.654)
Undoubtedly, the Zuma era. It’s interesting—when you look at the presidents, you’ve got to go into the inner beast. This hour we’re spending today is about dissecting the inner beast of the ANC, which I served for 34 years in and out. You’ve got to first understand the beast that you hunt. You’ve got to know what you hunt. We used to call it “know your enemy.” In business now, we call it “know your opposition.” I know them. Trust me, I know them.
It was a great organisation. It was a fantastic organisation. Because we knew our enemy.
Neil De Beer (15:25.658)
For an organisation to truly unify, history tells us you must first identify a common enemy. Once you get a populace to focus on and unite against the enemy, you can unite anything. After that, you have to continue spreading news—propaganda—about how bad this enemy is for everyone and how good you are for fighting it.
The ANC chose Apartheid as the common enemy. But after ’94, what was the common enemy? The ANC could not make the transition.
Chris, here it is—on BizNews: The African National Congress, in the 30 years that they now govern, could not make the transition from a liberation movement fighting a common enemy to a successful government. The actual enemies they needed to focus on today are poverty and the economy—and they can’t do it.
We had Mandela, but nothing substantial happened in his era to advance the “meat and potatoes.” It was just, “Hello, thank you.” That’s what we had—we had Madiba. Then we had Thabo Mbeki, who failed disastrously with AIDS—the massive slander that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, and the failure to roll out ARVs. Mbeki was not a democrat—he was a bureaucrat. That we know.
Then came Zuma…
Neil De Beer (17:54.96)
…bringing South Africa to the forefront for all the wrong reasons. Zuma decided he wanted to be president but first had to free himself from justice. And people forget, Chris, about Kgalema Motlanthe. People forget that Kgalema Motlanthe was the third president of this Republic, although only for a year. In other words, he was put there to keep the seat warm for Jacob Zuma.
Then came Zuma. Mandela had one term, Mbeki had one and a half terms, Motlanthe didn’t even have a full term, and then Jacob Zuma, by hook or crook, managed to beat everyone and take the presidency.
When Zuma took over, everybody loved him. Even the Wittes, because he had charisma. He was dancing, he was singing, and everybody said, “Right, we’ve got a good guy.”
But it all went downhill from there.
Neil De Beer (19:22.126)
What a mistake. Then Zuma and his era brought back the rehashing of Shabir Shaik, who went to jail, but he was terminally ill and released to supposedly spend his final days on a golf course. Then came the eruption of the Guptas—a massive onslaught of Gupta influence in public. The Zuma brand, once so charismatic, became tainted. Tainted to such an extent that it turned into a tumor, a cancer growing in this country—a free-for-all, a loot-for-all.
That’s when the era came where we broke. We broke as a country. We started being refused our passports—the same passports from 1994 that allowed us to go anywhere. Now, one by one, those doors were closing.
And Chris, here’s a bombshell I’d like to tell you. People don’t understand intelligence, so let me share something that no one actually knows. Jacob Zuma does not need to go through the weapons scandal trials or the looting trials he’s currently facing. He was already implicated in a judgment by a judge on record. Now, Chris, go back to the judgment against Shabir Shaik. The day that judge found Shaik guilty and sentenced him…
Neil De Beer (21:04.073)
…in her record of judgment, there’s a paragraph that annihilates, implicates, and destroys the credibility of Jacob Zuma. The paragraph states there is credible information, proof, and evidence that Mr. Jacob Gedleyihlekisa Zuma was in a clear corrupt relationship with Shabir Shaik.
No one, Chris, in the past 25 years has ever gone back—neither the NPA nor Justice—and said, “Wait a minute: Jacob Gedleyihlekisa Zuma, in a judgment by the High Court, is implicated by de facto evidence in a corrupt relationship.” Instead, they sent Shabir Shaik to jail, and that paragraph got lost in translation. Isn’t that interesting?
So, Chris, that’s where the real cracks began—when we started having presidents not finishing their terms. Not one.
Neil De Beer (22:48.070)
Mandela, by his own decision, stepped down after one term—we must respect him for that. Mbeki was removed during his second term by the ANC. Kgalema Motlanthe only served for one year, not of his own accord in my opinion. He was simply told to keep the seat warm. Jacob Zuma was fired during his second term and didn’t see it through. Now, I fear Cyril might also not complete two terms after the 2027 election.
Can you believe that this ANC, in its 113-year history, has never delivered a president who could serve the full democratic two terms? That’s another problem, Chris, and it’s shocking. People need to know that.
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Chris Steyn (23:31.846)
While the party is now not only battling factionalism, it’s also grappling with an increasing number of dissenting voices from within. The latest one being that political Casanova, Tony Yengeni. It seems the Secretary-General is on regular reprimand duty. Something like this would have been unthinkable once, Neil.
Neil De Beer (23:56.558)
It was totally unthinkable. Can I quickly tell you something from inside the beast? Yes, there were votes, there were elections, but there was never a contestation for leadership within the ANC in the pre-1994 era. I don’t know if people realize this. The African National Congress always knew, crystal clear, who the next leader would be.
They knew Mandela, sitting on Robben Island, could not be the President of the ANC because he wasn’t outside, but irrespective of that, he was the president-in-waiting. Oliver Tambo, on three or four occasions, refused the presidency, but in the end, he had to take it. O.R. Tambo was not elected, nominated, or contested; he was told, and he accepted.
When Mandela was released, there was no vote, no conference—Mandela became the President. Then, as the system progressed, the norm was for the ANC’s Vice President to become the President. Hence, Mbeki—though not accepted by everyone, trust me—became the President after Mandela.
Now, Chris, right there, we broke tradition. That’s when the first major political policy cracks in the party began—when contestation for leadership entered the picture.
Neil De Beer (25:55.374)
And Mbeki is contested. After that, Zuma is contested, and so on. In the middle of democracy, the ANC suddenly had to face a reality: this is not a democracy. In my opinion, because I was there, there was a massive problem with this. The comrades, the branches, the people who make up the ANC, suddenly found themselves in a scenario where they had to choose. They had to campaign, develop strategies, and, ultimately, they realized there was one thing they also needed: money.
They needed money. And that brought another crack into the ANC because, in the past, as you know, they were never out there contesting, putting different pictures of people on t-shirts, lobbying, and paying people. Now they found themselves in that space.
The question now is: who paid them? Who were the first people approached by the factions—the Zuma faction, the CR faction, the Mbeki faction? Who funded them? That introduced another facet of fiscal abuse.
So, Chris, the ANC found itself navigating an unexplored road. And I can tell you one of the biggest failures of this ANC—and this is no lie—is that the three strongest bastions within the ANC, which made the ANC what it was, were the Youth League, the Women’s League, and MKVA, the real uMkhonto weSizwe Veterans Association. Chris, you had massive leaders…
Neil De Beer (27:55.768)
…in the ANC Youth League. Leaders like Peter Mokaba, at that kind of level. But since Julius Malema left, this is clear—it’s not anything but the truth: the last credible, sporadic, dynamic, crazy, uncontrollable leader of the ANC Youth League was Julius Malema. When Malema left, the Youth League collapsed. They are now a non-entity—you don’t hear about them anymore.
The Women’s League collapsed. Cyril Ramaphosa disbanded MKVA. And that’s a fact. Without those three structures, the ANC will never recover, and it hasn’t. That is the problem we face now…
Neil De Beer (28:52.790)
This ANC—let’s fast forward to today—is ripped apart. It’s destroyed, it’s sunk, it’s rusted. It has enemies, and it’s being slaughtered piece by piece, both internally and externally. That’s where we are today.
With this new SG, Fikile Mbalula…
Neil De Beer (29:23.246)
…he has now, in the past five days, blatantly started positioning himself to contest in 2027. That’s where we are with this carcass. What they’re going to celebrate on Saturday, God only knows.
Chris Steyn (29:44.262)
Thank you. That was Neil De Beer, the President of the United Independent Movement, a man who spent 34 years in the African National Congress, speaking to BizNews as the ANC turns 113 today. Thank you, Neil. And I’m Chris Steyn.
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