A race war of words has been raging for days over US President Donald Trump’s refugee offer to Afrikaners. ActionSA leader Herman Mashaba has also been drawn into that. In this interview with BizNews, he says: “what I think I find strange is that these people who are criticizing me, insulting me actually of racism, are people who are happy when I criticize ANC corruption.” As for Trump, Mashaba says: “I think it is actually quite scary the manner and the rate at which Trump is actually taking his decisions.” Mashaba blames President Cyril Ramaphosa for not engaging, “particularly AfriForum and some of the political parties in his so-called GNU, because these are the people who went out and fed this information to Trump’s advisors”. As for the role being played by Elon Musk, he says: “…this has never really happened in the history of United States where someone from outside can actually, actually looks like it’s more powerful than the president himself”. Meanwhile, following some by-election defeats for former President Jacob Zuma’s MKP, Mashaba holds up KZN province “a good model for democracy because it says to all of us in all the provinces that let’s not be married to political parties. Let us be married to what political parties stand for. We vote them in on the basis of what they promise and they fail, next time you punish them.”
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Edited transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:02.111)
A race war of words has been raging for days over US President Donald Trump’s refugee offer to Afrikaners. ActionSA leader Mr. Herman Mashaba has also been drawn into that over his stance. He is with us now. Welcome, sir.
Herman Mashaba (00:19.042)
Yes, good morning, Chris. And as always, thank you for the opportunity and good morning to your listeners.
Chris Steyn (00:26.051)
So you have been attacked on social media. What do you have to say to Afrikaners about this offer?
Herman Mashaba (00:33.698)
Well, it’s actually quite really very sad if I look at their attacks. Obviously from my personal point of view, I take them to really be unfair because I cannot honestly in my life understand why people must refuse to discuss our history. They just want us to talk about South Africa like South Africa was only born and started in 1994. South Africa did not start in 1994. Some of us at the age of 66 or 65, you know, we lived more than half of my life under that evil system. And 1994 we thought ANC will bring about changes and under Nelson Mandela we excited, celebrated that moment.
Unfortunately, it’s a disappointment. But what I think I find strange is that these people who are criticizing me, insulting me actually of racism, are people who are happy when I criticize ANC corruption, which I’m justified and I’m not going to apologize for criticizing the ANC for its failure.
But at the same time, I wasn’t born in 1994. I was already a big employee in this country. I was already an industrialist. I started business during the dark days of my country’s history. And if they don’t want me to discuss that, honestly, I think it’s because of guilt to some extent, people who feel guilty about the past. I think…
But to want to suppress the discussions on this, we’re not going to go forward. There’s a reason why you have this radical left actually taking advantage of this. But at the end of the day, you know what, is their choice. When I was attacked all these years…
Herman Mashaba (02:40.716)
…when I was tackling ANC corruption and maladministration, they were celebrating me. But now I’m reminding them that yes, we must not stop blaming the ANC for the 30-year mess. However, this started a long time ago.
And if I look at the role that particularly big business played in the corruption of the ANC. I mean, I think you cannot dispute that. And that really created a problem because these ANC people came from either prison or exile and showed the money became multi-billionaires, million, multi-millionaires overnight and took their eye off the ball.
And, what I think I find it totally unacceptable is that now all of a sudden as black people we must accept that we are corrupt as the ANC and that’s something that I will never accept that from anyone. If people are not happy with me to refuse to be associated with ANC corruption then let that be their problem not mine.
Chris Steyn (03:58.307)
So what would you say to Trump if you could have a one-on-one meeting with him?
Herman Mashaba (04:03.798)
Well, I think it’s unfortunate, you know, the country that I’ve got so much respect for, very important strategic partner for us in South Africa and in the world. And America is always over the years. Yes, they’ve got their own faults, but I think they really saved us from the Stalin and the communist regime all over the world. Without America, this whole world, after…the communist party Lenin and the Russian Communist Party took over, will really be in trouble today.
America helped in defending democracy, human rights, property rights. And for the first time in our history, I see someone actually taking executive decision based on, on fake news and rumour. It’s never happened in the history of America. And not only attacking South Africa, literally attacking the entire world, which is really very sad. It’s actually scary in the sense that America is a powerful nation.
But one thing that America must learn from history is that…we can be powerful today. Some of us who are students of history, you look at the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, you look at the Soviet Union and so forth. You cannot really sustain your power if you don’t really do the right things. And I think it is actually quite scary the manner and the rate at which Trump is actually taking his decisions.
Chris Steyn (05:56.163)
Now sir, if you were president, if you had become president, how would you be handling this crisis now?
Herman Mashaba (06:02.22)
Well, I think, and I’ve said this many times before, as soon as this matter came into our attention and the debates in South Africa, I mean, I blame Cyril Ramaphosa for not engaging, particularly AfriForum and some of the political parties in his so-called GNU, because these are the people who went out and fed this information to Trump’s advisors.
They don’t realise the racial disharmony that they are causing in our country. I would have actually, for me, honestly, the same day I would have called them, including calling the media, for them to really give us evidence of widespread expropriation of land in South Africa, human rights abuse of certain people, particularly the Afrikaners.
I honestly wanted to, I would have called them and actually because the president has got the powers and the means to call someone anywhere, including someone in the parliament and invite the media, let them come and provide the evidence of what they’re talking about because I live here in South Africa, I was born here, I’ve never lived anywhere in my life. I obviously had the privilege to travel the world.
But what it’s actually has informed Trump’s decision about widespread exploitation of land and human rights abuse of certain people, particularly the Africaner, I find it quite disingenuous, quite really concerning.
And I think we need AfriForum and those that, that went to talk to Trump’s advisors about this, to really give us evidence. Perhaps, Chris, some of us are blinded by something that we don’t really see. Maybe they’ve got the evidence, but I think let the president call them in parliament, summon them to parliament to come and really bring this information and tell us what they told Trump and his advisors.
Chris Steyn (08:24.483)
Now former president Jacob Zuma’s MKP has laid the charge of high treason against AfriForum, accusing; they say they’re guilty of economic sabotage for their role in Trump’s decision. You agree?
Herman Mashaba (08:38.806)
Well, I think, for me, I remember the first day when it came out to say, you know, this is treacherous what they’ve done, but I’m not a lawyer to really be able to determine whether it can stand in front of a court of law.
But I think if one looks at it from a philosophical point of view, I think for me, they’re traitors, I take this to really be traitors, whether you can prove, you can really prove them guilty in a court of law is another thing I’m not a lawyer.
But from just using my common sense, I regard the people who actually cause this racial division and disharmony in our country, I take them to really be traitors. Because honestly, know, yesterday I was listening to one of the radio stations driving from Soweto, you know, people phoning in, talking about the experiences they last week or so in terms of at work, how there’s such racial tensions and distrust and so forth and I really got so sad that did these people actually realize what they have really done or did they see that when you come out with such irresponsible acts that you have a chance of actually causing challenges for the country.
Our country is only 30 years old. The ANC government really failed to unite us. Nelson Mandela did such a fantastic work because the crisis growing up, its own record, I’ve written about this even during apartheid days because I really grew and even when I was in business, I never imagined that it was going to be possible the way the National Party had divided us along racialized lines, using brutal force. I never thought honestly that there’s a human being who can bring us together, you know. And I give credit to Nelson Mandela and F.W. De Klerk for the role that they’ve played. But unfortunately, Mandela at that time was already too old to sustain as you needed him for another 20 years to really help with reconciliation…
Herman Mashaba (11:00.43)
…and have the debate. But now what’s happening right now, the people who are insulting me are the ones who are refusing to talk about life before 1994. They accuse me of being a victim of my past, live in the past. They don’t realise I’m a student of history. The reason why I’ve managed to be successful during the days of this country because I know how to navigate the political environment. I’ve always been a politically conscious person. That’s why I’m able to navigate. I was never in bonded to the National Party during Apartheid. I defied them. I defied the ANC when I started seeing them going astray because I…I don’t owe the ANC anything and they don’t owe me anything, including the National Party. I’m a free human being. 26 August 1959, during the days of the leadership of this country, the Prime Minister being HF Verwoerd, a free man was born. And this man up to now understand politics and now knows how to…to navigate them and is the man that would not really one day hold anyone can hold anything against them and Herman Mashaba. I’m a free man whether it’s a National Party, whether it’s a DA, whether it’s the ANC. I don’t owe anything anything and I’m going to use my constitutional right enshrined in our constitution to exercise my right to talk and speak openly, whether some people feel uncomfortable or not, that’s not going to be my problem. I’m concerned about the inequality in our country. I’m concerned about the racial division that we are….
Herman Mashaba (13:10.848)
…we currently have to deal with. And I can assure you there’s no way we are going to normalize racial relationships in this country if we are going to feel guilty about talking about it. We must talk freely.
The ANC has been a very corrupt organization over the last 30 years. But at the same time, I’ve lived half of my life under a brutal system. I remember when I started my business, it was at the time when I still had to carry the Dompas, having the state of emergency. Every time I leave the townships, I get stopped by the Army driving my car. And they will ask me where did you get this car? And I’ll say to them, no, I a Shebeen owenr. And they’ll get happy with me.
You know, so people don’t want us to talk about this. Why? I don’t understand because I can tell you the more people refuse us to engage about this, to talk about our past, talk about ANC corruption and mismanagement over the last 30 years, we will never have peace in this country. And fortunate enough, some of us are fortunate enough that no one is going to silence us.
Chris Steyn (14:39.565)
So if South Africa’s relationship with the US implodes completely, what are its options? How can it compensate for the loss of that relationship? Which way?
Herman Mashaba (14:50.614)
Well, I think I was encouraged yesterday when I saw in the social media platform, I saw the European Union ambassadors in this country, one after the other, recommitting themselves to South Africa. We have China on the other side that we can really go to as much as, yes, we can really be concerned about the the economic system, but at end of the day, as a trading partner.
If America so decide, what can you do? The problem is what Trump is expecting and the AfriForum expects us to do in South Africa. It’s unachievable. If the crisis, you are accused of something you’ve not done, tell me how are you going to correct it? Because if we have to engage on stopping this widespread land expropriation, which way? How, where do you begin to correct it? When we talk about Africans being mistreated, that human rights are being exploited, how?
I know in my businesses, in the 80s, I started, as you are aware, I started my business with an African partner, Johan Kriel, in 1984. And I look at it, it is in the book, people can look at the role that Johan and our relationship played in as much as we made money, but the role that because Johan was coming from a very verkrampte background, but fortunately enough, he was a very enlightened guy. And also on the other hand, you can imagine for me as a black person, some of the black people saying, why didn’t you get a white, a black chemist to work with? You know, so I had to deal with all this nonsense. And for me, I was looking at business and in business, you’re going to business with somebody feel comfortable. I don’t really worry about the colour of the person’s skin. It’s about what the person can bring to me. You look at the founding members of this political party called ActionSA, they say, it’s not just Herman Mashaba.
Herman Mashaba (17:15.37)
It’s Michael Beauman and André Coetzee. Young, bright, educated whites, one English, one Afrikaner. You look at the people we’ve deployed as a party around the mayor of Tshwane some of the best team. mean, we had to take Andre to run the political party and actually be the Nasiphi’s, Dr. Moya’s, chief of staff.
And you look at other people around there, including getting one young Africanker economist born and brought in Pretoria with a Master’s from Stellenbosch University in Economics, a Master’s in Economics from London School of Economics.
These are the people we deployed around here because I always believe in surrounding myself with the best people. And Andre and Pieter and Mpho are not putting around the mayor because they are black or white. They are the right people to save our city. And no one can dispute the fact that Tshwane is now a model in this country, a model in the sense that we inherited a broken city, a bankrupt city. I mean, she just gave her report on Monday or Tuesday and everyone, I think, including parliament. I had people in parliament the last few days with the debate. Last week, the Auditor General in Parliament, when he was obviously giving reports on municipalities using Tshwane as an example of the turnaround strategy. And you remember, Chris, how I was ostracized, called names, having graphics depicting Herman Mashaba with the city burning, with Herman Mashaba looking at the tenders of the city of Tshwane, And I said to myself, what have I got to do with the tenders? I had the privilege…
Herman Mashaba (19:39.064)
…to be the Mayor of the City of Johannesburg for three years. I never discussed any tender with anyone in my life. I’m not interested in tenders. I’m interested in providing services to this country. And that’s something that I hope with ANC working with us in Tshwane can see what public service is all about because it looks like they don’t really have the knowledge.
Chris Steyn (20:05.987)
So lastly, what do you make of Elon Musk’s role in Trump’s handling of South Africa?
Herman Mashaba (20:15.022)
You know, I was discussing this with my wife last night watching CNN and I’m saying to myself, my goodness, this has never really happened in the history of United States where someone from outside can actually, actually looks like it’s more powerful than the president himself, is there with his little boy and he’s the one answering media queries. I’m looking at this knowing the Americans are the most vocal, the most educated. I wonder how sustainable this is going to be.
I think as far as I read the situation, looks like…yeah, Elon Musk has actually overrated his wealth; to think that because of wealth, you can do what you want. But I think let’s leave it to the Americans to sort out. But unfortunately for us, what his advising Donald Trump to do about South Africa? That’s something that I’m a strong believer that…there’s nothing we can do. It is up to him and his conscience one day to find the answers within himself as to the turmoil that is costing not only to South Africa, to the entire world.
Chris Steyn (21:48.205)
Just one last thing, sir. There have been a couple of interesting by-election results in KZN after the huge surge of former President Jacob Zuma’s MKP.
Herman Mashaba (22:01.806)
It’s interesting asking this question. I’ve been following Wayne Sussman the last few days. Yesterday I watched him on television giving us the outcomes of by-elections, think about six or seven by-elections held in KZN on Tuesday. And there was one important one yesterday.
It’s actually interesting that KZN politics are the most fluid in the country from 1994. If you look at 1994, remember ANC took over and the next election IFP took over, ANC took back and so forth. And I think with the way and the manner in which MKP took over and performed in the recent elections.
But look at not just the election, the by-elections this week. I mean, everywhere where they contested, they are literally destroyed in just seven months. So it’s very interesting development. In fact, this morning I sent it to our team in KZN and I said, guys, your politics in your region, in your province, are the most unpredictable. But I think it’s actually a good model for democracy because it says to all of us in all the provinces that let’s not be married to political parties. Let us be married to what political parties stand for. We vote them in on the basis of what they promise and they fail, next time you punish them.
I think we can really learn a lot and I hope the political schools and so forth, let’s hope the academics in this country can really do a case study as a matter of urgency. Let them encourage political scientists applying for PhDs to do a case study on politics in KZN since 1994. So that…
Herman Mashaba (24:16.706)
…the whole country can learn how democracy will survive because democracy will only succeed when you have opposition.
Chris Steyn (24:26.957)
Thank you. That was ActionSA Leader, Mr. Herman Mashaba speaking to BizNews about the latest political developments in South Africa. Thank you, sir. And I’m Chris Steyn.
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