In this wide-ranging interview with BizNews, Gayton McKenzie, the Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture, gives behind-the-scenes insights into the stance of political parties on VAT and the postponement of the Budget speech. āWe had our biggest test for me since joining the GNU this weekā¦I say we passed that test with flying colours.ā However, he calls on all political leaders to ārestrain ourselves from beating our chest and then making the GNU look badā. McKenzie stresses that the GNU is āsacrosanctā to the future of South Africa – and says: āIf this GNU fails, I am leaving this country.ā He also speaks about his meeting with AfriForum, saying: āWhat we managed to agree on is one thing: that there’s no white genocideā. However, he says the African National Congress (ANC) was āvery clumsyā in its handling of the Expropriation with Compensation Bill – and the GNU now has to craft new foreign policy. As for the next national elections, McKenzie warns: āZuma is the threat for the GNU in 2029ā¦.You will see President Zuma in 2029 if the GNU doesnātĀ stop him.“
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Edited transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:01.604)
The unity and strength of the Government of National Unity has had another big test this week. We speak to Mr. Gayton McKenzie, the Minister of Sports, Arts and Culture. He was in the thick of all the drama, and he is with us now. Welcome, Minister.
Gayton McKenzie (00:18.658)
Thank you. Thanks for having me, Chris. It’s a great honor to be on BizNews. We had our biggest test since I joined the GNU this week. And if you ask me how we did, I say we passed that test with flying colors. Budgets are usually the things that pull governments apart, that bring governments down. And you donāt need to go farājust look at Germany, for instance. They couldnāt agree on a budget, and now theyāre going to have elections.
South Africa must be proud because, this week, I have seen people who differ respectfully. I have seen people with different views but with one aim: the people. And when I say “the people,” I mean all South Africansānot just businesspeople, not just people on the ground. It was a bouquet of ideas that was put on the table. It is very easy to blame the Finance Minister for the 2% VAT hike, but I think that is unfair toward him. Iāll tell you why. All of us cabinet ministers are asking for more money. He came back and said, “All right, should we look at this as an option?” He didnāt come to Parliament and say, “This is what we are going to do.” He asked us, “What do you think?” Now, we must come up with ideasānot just cut and say, “No, we donāt want that.” What is the alternative? Thatās what the President asked us: “Whatās on the other side of it?” If you are not going to do this, as ministers and leaders, you must propose ideas. And thatās what we are going to doāwe will come up with ideas.
But I want to say to people that I got worried when I saw, immediately after this whole fiasco, that the rand took a dive, and the DA was beating its chest, saying they were the ones who stopped it. Now, what they are essentially saying is that they were fighting for peopleās interests. Against whom? Because we are one government. We canāt fight against each other. When you say, “I stopped the VAT hike,” you are implying that the other partiesā¦
Gayton McKenzie (02:44.622)
ā¦which include the Patriotic Alliance, GOOD, Freedom Front Plusāwe all wanted the VAT hike. That is what they are suggesting, without explicitly saying it. So, I had to come out and set the record straight. I had to come out and say that it is a blatant lie. And they know it. We shouldnāt play with those kinds of lies.
Every minister in this Cabinet was not in favor of the 2% VAT increase. Itās wrong to go out and make such claims. Not only does it hurt other parties that are supposed to be your partners, but it also hurts the country. And now, putting on my businessman hatāif I read something like that, Iād think, “No, I better get my money out of here. The DA says these guys want to go this way; now they are no longer together.” The DA must understand that they are no longer the opposition. The PA is no longer the opposition. We are together. There was no division. That claim is a lie. We were together. We were not in favor of the VAT increase. We have been given the opportunity to go back and come up with alternative ideas. Hence, the postponement, which we all agreed upon as parties. So, letās not mislead people.
And I want to warn leadersāthe world is watching the GNU. This is South Africaās last hope. Some might say, “Maybe you are excited about the GNU. You are excited about blue lights.” I am the least excited about that because this is my everyday life. I donāt drive myself. I live in five-star hotels. So, itās not about perks. What perks? The issue is the country. The country must come first. And for me, we passed this week with flying colors. I mean, I listened to John Steenhuisen give a great speechāthe best Iāve ever heard from himāon why there should not be a VAT increase. John Steenhuisen is from the DA. So, we are together.
I also listened to a guy like Minister Ramokgopa, who spoke with absolute clarity, passion, and intellectualism, articulating the matter clearly.
Genuinely, Chris, I was in London for rugby meetingsā¦
Gayton McKenzie (05:09.004)
ā¦and I was informed that 12 billionaires specifically requested to meet me for lunch.
Read more: The 2% VAT hike Treasury kept quietāAnd why they pushed for it
Gayton McKenzie (05:17.230)
Why me? When I asked them why they wanted to see me, they said they knew they would get the unvarnished truth. I said, “Okay.” And what they wanted to know from me was how strong this GNU is. I said, “Iāll tell you, on one conditionāif I can also ask you a question.” They agreed. So, I explained the GNU to them. I explained how, even when times seem difficult, President Cyril Ramaphosa has a skillāhe brings us all together again. He will even correct me and say, “No, you are wrong, Mr. McKenzie.” Or he will say to a Minister from the ANC, “You are wrong.” Because he has made us believe that we are not ANC, PA, or any other party in the Cabinetāwe are simply cabinet ministers. That is how it should be. When I explained this to the billionaires in London, they bought into what I was sayingābecause it was the truth.
Then I asked them my question: “Why did you want to see me?” And they were very honest. They said that the tax system in the UK is becoming very anti-progress, and they were considering coming back to South Africa. They had looked at the GNU and didnāt believe it would last, but now they are more convinced than ever that it will.
So, to all politicians, I want to say this: as leadersāincluding myself, because I sometimes fall into the same behavior I am warning againstāwe must understand that the GNU is sacrosanct to the future of South Africa. We must not even entertain the thought of its failure, because that would be Armageddon. If this GNU fails, I am leaving this countryāI am telling you nowābecause I know what will happen. We dare not fail the GNU. We dare not fail, because I will not sit here and watch South Africa collapse. This is not a time for ideology or experimenting with socialism, communism, or different economic models. We have a workable model.
Gayton McKenzie (07:42.990)
We are coming together. To all leadersāwe must restrain ourselves from beating our chests and making the GNU look bad. Let us, for once, put the GNU before the Patriotic Alliance, before the African National Congress, before the Democratic Allianceājust for once. Because your party will not exist if the GNU fails. We are a great country with great people. Letās make it work.
Chris Steyn (08:13.52)
Minister, you have also met with AfriForum. Please tell us what you managed to agree on and what you disagreed on.
Gayton McKenzie (08:22.744)
Firstly, I was very annoyed that people were telling me, “You must not meet with them.” I don’t get told what to do. AfriForum members are South Africans. When you have South Africans complaining about something, instead of throwing stones at them, try to understand their point of view. You must listen to the other side. And none other than the great Nelson Mandela taught us that. Nelson Mandela met with Betsie Verwoerd. He met with Kobie Coetsee. He met with Die Groot Krokodil, P.W. Botha. He met with them.
Now, weāve learned from that. Kallie and his group have a view of South Africa that I donāt share. I met with them because I wanted to understand their perspective. What we managed to agree on is one thingāthere is no white genocide. Everybody in this country knows there is no white genocide. You are a racist if you believe there is white genocide in this country. Iām telling you straight up. I’ve seen highly educated, successful businesspeople agreeing that there is a white genocide. No, youāre just a subtle racist. They don’t want to admit thatāeven some of your viewers. I saw them saying, “Yeah, speak up about the white genocide.” No, you are a closet racist. Thatās why you are saying thereās a white genocide.
White people in this country are not being targeted because they are white. White people are part of a broader problem of crime. We have a crime problem in South Africa. We have a serious violent crime problem that needs to be dealt with decisively.
Coloured peopleāI am a coloured personādie more than any other race in this country. But we don’t have the right to say thereās a genocide against us and blame the state. Farmers are being killed. White farmers, black farmers, Indian farmersāall are falling victim to crime.
Gayton McKenzie (10:23.118)
But because the majority of white people in agriculture are farmers, it might look like white people are being specifically targeted. That is not the case. We should not, for the sake of wanting to fit in, agree with narratives that can destroy this country. There is no white genocide in this country.
Chris, you can go to Pick n Pay, Shoprite, or Checkers right now to buy your groceries without protection, without bodyguards. In a genocide, do you think that would be possible? People must not take their wishes and project them as reality.
So I met with Kallie and AfriForum. I was criticised heavily for it, but I donāt care because I believe leadership is not just about listening to those you agree with. True leadership is about listening to those you disagree with.
And Americans must hear the truth. There are some Americans who genuinely believe thereās a genocide happening here.
Chris Steyn (11:33.594)
Gayton, regarding our foreign policy, which direction do you think the GNU will take in the wake of recent developments?
Gayton McKenzie (11:45.932)
I think there are some leaders out here talking nonsense, saying, āAmerica must go to hell.ā You talk about America going to hell because you have medical aid. If PEPFAR is withdrawn, people will die. People will lose their jobs.
Right now, even with PEPFAR in place, we have unemployed doctors and unemployed nurses. If PEPFAR, which funds 70% of our HIV/AIDS budget, is cut, how many more doctors and nurses will lose their jobs?
We should not be arrogant. Two wrongs donāt make a right. America was wrong in expressing its stance through X (Twitter). I don’t think it’s right for the president of South Africa to find out about America’s stance at the same time as Gayton McKenzie does. Thatās not how diplomacy works. Their approach was wrong, no matter what their strategy was.
But I also think we are wrong. The DA has its foreign policy, the PA has its foreign policy, and different parties have different stances. We must now sit in the GNU and craft a unified foreign policy.
I believe we are in the best position ever. We donāt have enemies. That is a good position for South Africa to be in. So why would we want to create enemies? We must put South Africa first at all times. Donāt come to me and say, āYou are our friend because we were together in the Struggle.ā Everybody is our friend.
Countries donāt have feelings. They shouldnāt have feelings. They should have policies. And policies can be cold. Iāll give you an exampleāwhen the Americans left Afghanistan, they only evacuated their own people. There were babies left on the tarmac. You might think thatās insensitive, but a countryās responsibility is to its own people first.
Gayton McKenzie (14:00.04)
Our responsibility should be to our people first. What works for us?
The PA wants nothing to do with countries like Iran. I am unapologetic about that. Other parties might want nothing to do with Israel, and itās their right to be unapologetic about that. But that is not our policy. We are different parties, and we need to come together and craft a new foreign policy.
As far as America is concerned, I believe the president shouldājust as he has said he willāsend a strong delegation to the U.S. to present our case and also express our dissatisfaction with how we were informed of their stance.
But let me be clearāthere is no white genocide.
I also believe the ANC handled the Expropriation Bill very badly. Most countries have similar bills, but the way the ANC framed it was clumsy, and it backfired. But land reform is necessary.
For example, we bought land in North West. We bought two parcels of land, but the land in the middle belonged to a white uncle who passed away 40 years ago. There was no will, and they canāt find an heir. Now, we canāt connect the two pieces of land. This is where the state should step in and say, āWe take this.ā
I donāt believe in expropriation without compensation, but I do believe in expropriation. There has to be expropriation because how else will you ensure that black people, coloured people, and Khoisan people also own land?
But expropriation must never happen without compensation. People are afraid to say it, but the party I belong to does not believe in expropriation without compensation because I understand property rights. Once you lose property rights, you lose the country. It doesnāt matter which country youāre ināonce property rights are gone, that country is finished.
So yes, you can expropriate landābut pay people market value for their property. Donāt just take it.
Chris Steyn (16:27.61)
Gayton, and lastly, how do you see the next election playing out after everything that’s happened since the previous one?
Gayton McKenzie (16:35.596)
But just before I answer that, one thing I forgot to say. I think we need to look after China and America as our two biggest trading partners. We need to make peace with them. We need to have an agreement with them. Thereās IndiaāIndia is in BRICS, and they are close with America as well. We should do the same. And I hope that is what the GNU will soon set in motion around that issue.
Now, about the next election. I can tell you, I’m usually right about these things, and Alec will tell you that. I can tell you what can stopā¦ Jacob Zuma. He is a tsunami. I said it beforeāI was the only one who said itāand Iām still saying it.
People take a little fight between two members of a party and act like itās the end of that party. All parties have quarrels at times. That’s nothing. The nucleus of the party is still standing. People want to say MK is breaking up because of small disputesāno, we do that all the time in our party. We fire people, we hire people. Itās not a big thing.
Read more: Steenhuisen slams ANCās ādisastrousā VAT hike planāDA fights back
But here’s the issue: I do believe that the EFF is in a coma for the next election. They’ll be in a coma. But it’s not the end of them. I think they will rise from that coma after 2026. This is my opinionāthey will rise only after 2026.
I think Malema is too smart to just die out and fizzle away in the political sphere. He’s a wily old cat when it comes to politics. He has been here beforeādonāt forget that. And back then, he didnāt have a base, he didnāt have a party, he didnāt have party funding, and he still managed to build something when he was out there planting cabbages. He managed to rise from that.
And whether you like Malema or notāI donāt like Malemaābut Iām not going to lie about him. Malema has been in this position before, and he was in a better position back then. Heās going to come up again. Itās going to take some time, but he will rise.
The ANC can’t stop MK. The PA can’t stop MK. The DA can’t stop MK. What can stop MK is the GNU. Because, you see, President Zuma made one mistakeāhe built his entire campaign around the idea that the GNU is a sell-out position.
Gayton McKenzie (19:01.56)
Thatās what he has done. He tells all and sundry that the GNU is a sellout position.
Now, if the GNU creates jobs, if the GNU creates opportunities, if the GNU delivers, then people are going to say, “Wait a minute, this GNU is not that bad. Letās give this GNU a chance.” And that is what can stop MK.
But in the absence of thatā¦ I look at some of these leaders, and I thank God every day that I am not an arrogant person. I look at them and think, āDo you not see that MK is coming?ā And by the time they realize it, it will be too late.
They think they will make a deal with MK? They put an 80-year-old man in jail and think he has forgotten? He has not forgotten. And Iām telling you, Zuma is coming for revenge.
He can be stopped. He must be stopped. And we can stop him. But we can’t stop him by attacking each other.
You know, I was so annoyed during the State of the Nation Address. I sat there watching the ANC and DA attacking each other, while the EFF and MK were clapping. And I thought, “Look at these ones.”
Once you decide you’re part of something, you protect that thing.
Let me tell you somethingāmy first speech in Parliament, I didnāt even read it. Why? Because the leader of our GNU was under attack. They attacked President Cyril Ramaphosa, and I abandoned my prepared speech to defend him. Thatās how I believe things should be doneāyou defend your side when your side is under attack. You canāt stand there trying to sound intellectual while your side is under siege.
So Iām telling you, if we don’t stop this, if the GNU doesnāt act, Zuma is coming back. You will see President Zuma in 2029 if the GNU doesnāt stop him.
And the problem with South Africans is that we make decisions based on feelings. If we donāt like someone, then that person can never be right in our eyes. I donāt like Malema, but Iām telling you whatās going to happen. And Iām telling youāZuma must be stopped. He is a very calculated man.
Gayton McKenzie (21:24.984)
He is politically one of the smartest people you will ever meet in your life. I donāt think you will meet anyone politically smarter than Zuma. He takes his timeāand heās healthy. People say Zuma is old. That man is jumping across stages.
So Iām saying we need to stop him. But by fighting and attacking each other, we are playing into his hands.
Zuma is the biggest threat to the GNU in 2029. So the GNU must regroup, come together again, and make sure we stop President Zuma.
And let me be clearāI believe in the GNU. People constantly ask me to join the Progressive Force, the Progressive Caucus, but I will never do that. I am happy in the GNU. And we are going to make this country work. And we are going to ensure that in 2029, we put forward the best person for president of South Africa.
Chris Steyn (22:28.858)
Thank you. That was Mr. Gayton McKenzie, the Minister of Sports, Arts, and Culture, speaking to BizNews. And Iām Chris Steyn. Thank you, Gayton.
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