In this wide-ranging interview with BizNews, Ian Cameron, the Chairperson of Parliament’s Portfolio Committee on Police, takes viewers behind the scenes in the fight for a better police force. He covers the latest crime statistics; upcoming skills audits; the “carnage and chaos” and “dirty political fight” at Crime Intelligence; the “pushback” Police Minister Senzo Mchunu has been getting internally after “questioning certain things”; the significant challenge of working with certain senior managers in SAPS; the dangers of taking actions that directly impact on “especially the financial well-being of certain criminal figures”; and the horrific working conditions at the Anti-Gang Unit where he was shocked – on an unannounced oversight visit – to run into the very captain in whose vehicle a known Cape Flats hitman posed with a big smile a few years ago. Cameron also shares the successful outcomes of a number of the committee’s ground-level visits and departmental hearings. “I hope that these kinds of cases will set a bit of an example to potential wrongdoers in the South African Police Service….Something…that’s encouraging to me is the fact that from all the different parties or entities sides there are questions. So it makes it very difficult for anyone to hide because everyone has different contact points and different persons that they speak to. So I think it’s becoming a very uncomfortable environment to be in.”
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Edited transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:01.561)
For many South Africans, daily life is a logistical battle to avoid becoming a crime statistic. We speak to Ian Cameron, Parliament’s Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police. Welcome, Ian.
Ian (00:19.096)
Chris, thank you very much. It’s fantastic to be with you again.
Chris Steyn (00:22.371)
May we start with the crime stats, your take on the latest.
Ian (00:26.998)
Yeah, so let me give you a bit of an overview of the crime statistics pictures. I actually sat the last few days and just kind of broke it down a bit so that we understand the impact of violent crime.
So last week we heard – when the Police Minister Senzo Mchunu released the latest quarterly statistics, that’s for between October and December 2024 – that we had in those three months about 6,953 murders. That’s down by almost 10%. It’s 9.8 % down from the previous quarter and comparable period. And the daily murder rate is, and I think this is where it’s important to contextualize the percentage decrease because the daily murder rate is still about 75 people per day. This means that every hour, a minimum of three people are killed in the country. Chances are good that while you and I are speaking, someone will be murdered somewhere in South Africa. And we’ve got close to 530 murders per week.
So, yes, it’s important to acknowledge and commend a decrease in murder. I mean, I’ve read the comments saying that these aren’t the real statistics, et cetera. Murder is probably the best indicator compared to the others. It’s not something you can easily manipulate. I mean, we have to say that I guess there’s always room for error. But murder, generally speaking, is a pretty accurate indicator.
If we look at the other numbers, it’s still extremely, extremely high. I mean, they spoke about rape specifically that had come down by just over 3 percent. But even the reported rapes, and even though rape is so significantly under reported, we still had almost 12,000 rape cases during that time period. Those are just the ones that are reported remember, and I can’t remember if you and I have spoken about it before, but rape is extremely badly reported and it’s very often for…
Ian (02:47.0)
two main reasons. One, people don’t trust the system. So they feel even more traumatised when they have to go through the process where they feel that there will be no result or outcome of justice in any way. But then more importantly, it’s something that’s not really a policeable crime in that it usually happens behind closed doors. It can be a family member. It could be someone that you’re acquainted with. And so it is an extremely difficult crime to purely point the finger at the police.
And then, Chris, I mean, we can delve in deeper just now, but generally speaking, we still have massive numbers of crimes like assault with the intent to commit grievous bodily harm. We see that certain types of robbery have come down, but at the same time, we see that, for example, gang-related murders and gang-related conflict is still sky high. In the Western Cape alone in that period, we had just over 260 gang related murders. And remember, those are the ones that have been classified correctly as gang related; it could potentially be more.
So, you know, it’s important to acknowledge that there has been some change, but it’s still, it’s extremely high.
Chris Steyn (03:59.385)
So what are the most urgent interventions you would like to see implemented?
Ian (04:11.522)
Yeah, so I think there are a few interventions and I’ll start from a, let’s say, from a national level first. We’ve spoken about the skills audit that needs to be done in South African Police Service and it has become a resolution of Parliament, which is positive. It’s the first time ever that this has been done, especially with regards to the South African Police Service. And so I’m grateful for that.
Question is, when will it happen? So I saw the letter that the Speaker wrote to the Police Minister, the Speaker of Parliament said that it had to be implemented within X amount of time. And we’re waiting for the feedback on that.
Two questions around it is that it mustn’t be done by the police’s own internal audit. I mean, you can’t have the regulator being the actual, the regulator can’t be the regulated. And I think that’s one of the bigger worries. In terms of, you know, what follows the skills audit really comes down to integrity testing. I think integrity testing in the South African Police Service is not nearly up to scratch. We’ve seen the pushback that the Minister of Police has been receiving internally after questioning certain things and, you know, figuratively speaking, poking the bear, you know, and asking questions that make people very uncomfortable. And I think that integrity testing not only needs to be done by the relevant people in the broader law enforcement authorities, but even that can be audited from external entities. I’ve even started playing with the idea of asking the SIU to potentially go and look at integrity testing. How can they audit, say, the top 50 in the South African Police Service? Or we take all the divisional commissioners, national commissioners, the deputy national commissioners and all the provincial commissioners and do a skills audit, but along with that an integrity testing process with them and determine who should stay, who shouldn’t. And it will also point us in a certain direction as to who to investigate and who needs to go.
And I think when we clean up management, and I know people say, but we’ve been talking about this, but…
Ian (06:32.494)
..it’s important and this leads me to the next point. When you look at a division like Crime Intelligence, it is carnage and chaos. And to me, it’s become a fight, not just between potentially good and potentially or allegedly evil, but in some cases, it’s literally just faction against faction. And it’s become a very dirty political fight as well.
You see messages doing the rounds where certain senior people – sometimes I believe it really is them writing the message and other times it’s alleged that it was them writing it and it could be someone else – but where these messages do the rounds, where they tarnish each other’s names. And it’s made it very difficult from an oversight point of view because you can’t tarnish the entire or discredit the entire establishment because everything is not bad in the establishment.
And it feels very odd for me to say because I’m one of the first people to call certain wrongs out. But I can tell you that there are good people in the South African Police Service. So this fight in the Crime Intelligence environment is to the detriment of people in the country, of ordinary South Africans.
Chris Steyn (07:59.769)
Can you give us an update on cases against some of the top brass in Crime Intelligence?
Ian (08:07.212)
Yeah. So some of my fellow MPs, not only in the portfolio committee, but also in the National Council of Provinces, last year in November, a fellow colleague in the portfolio committee, Lisa Schickling, asked a question regarding security clearances. I know that Fadiel Adams also asked a question regarding that in the last week. So there are a lot of questions with regards to security clearances and we’ll start seeing hopefully the feedback on that soon. I know in the week of the 12th of March, actually the week of the the BizNews conference, there is a session where a lot of these questions will need to be answered.
But before I get back to that, we saw that the previous head of Crime Intelligence in the Western Cape was sacked. He was dismissed at the end of 2024 or closer to the end of 2024 and then it was revoked. I remember you and I spoke about it and then early in 2025 he was dismissed once again. So it seems that that case is sticking for now. Last week he was instructed to report to the police. He would also need to appear in court within the next couple of weeks for several different charges, one of them being defeating the ends of justice.
And I hope that these kinds of cases will send a bit of an example to potential wrongdoers in the South African Police Service.
I know there are current departmental hearings in different provinces, but also nationally that are ongoing, and some of them are linked to Crime Intelligence as well.
Others are more on the visible policing side. But I believe that slowly but surely you can start shaking the house of cards, let’s say it that way, and start asking questions in certain directions.
Something that does excite me or that’s encouraging to me is the fact that from all the different parties or entities sides there are questions.
Ian (10:26.924)
So it makes it very difficult for anyone to hide because everyone has different contact points and different persons that they speak to. So I think it’s becoming a very uncomfortable environment to be in.
One thing that we must be cautious of though is to cause damage to positive investigations and positive work that’s being done. And unfortunately, I’ve seen on social media, does sometimes affect that detrimentally. But generally speaking, I think we are moving in a direction, but it is going to take time.
Chris Steyn (11:03.351)
Ian, your committee must be drowning in information from whistleblowers, from within SAPS. How are you coping?
Ian (11:11.564)
Yeah, so when I just started as chairperson, both myself and all the members of the committee, we really were flooded. So we had to go through a process of developing the relevant responses and the relevant channels for people to follow and to make sure that people exhaust the necessary remedies before just coming to us because unfortunately over the years the system has really, you, know broken in in some parts, so whether it is handling inquiries at National Inspectorate of the Police, whether it is handling inquiries through IPID, or or even sometimes you know we even get requests regarding the NPA which is not within our scope or mandate.
We’ve genuinely started…I think we’re handling most of the requests within a fair amount of time. But it is difficult, Chris, because we’ve come to a point where we need to choose who we can help first. And it’s not because we don’t want to help everyone. We just simply do not have the capacity to help everyone. And it’s also important to understand that we don’t have direct operational power. It’s more an oversight type of body.
I think you have seen the oversight visits that we’ve been doing.
Chris Steyn (12:39.033)
Tell us about that unannounced oversight visit to the Anti-Gang Unit and the horror findings.
Ian (12:48.31)
Yeah, so it was quite something. About two weeks ago, a week or two ago, we went on an unannounced visit to the Anti-Gang unit in Cape Town. And, you know, over the last few weeks, two of my colleagues, Lisa Schickling, that I spoke of earlier, that’s in the police committee with me, and then also Nicholas Godsell, who is part of the select committee in the National Council of Provinces, you know, we’ve been doing these unannounced visits to stations and units and so on. And generally speaking, I can tell you that the enthusiasm, the energy that you see amongst some of the police members was quite positive. It was surprisingly more positive than what I expected in some places. But then you go and look at the circumstances in which these members have to work. And it is shocking.
Let me start with the Anti-Gang Unit. When we went there, it was really sad to see the state of affairs that those members have to work in. You’re talking about about 210 police members that only have two toilets amongst all of them at a unit of that so-called caliber.
I spent, along with Nicholas and Lisa, we spent some time with the members as well and not just the the command team, and we asked them to speak with us. How do they feel? And, you know, they said that it’s really difficult for them to be in a unit where they are actually not acknowledged in any way. Many of them came directly there from stations and they’ve never received any form of specialised training. So they’re forced into very dangerous circumstances. They don’t have the vehicles or the tools that they need to get the job done. And at the same time, everyone thinks that they are these, let’s call them soldiers that fight gangs for lack of better words. And they have the impression of this extremely strong big body. Meanwhile, it’s a small group of dedicated cops that have had significant challenges internally with corruption, discipline, et cetera. And now you’ve got this, call them a band of brothers and sisters that…
Ian (15:13.346)
…they can’t function properly even if they wanted to because the command structure, especially provincially and nationally regarding Anti-Gang units is not structured correctly. It’s not healthy either. Let me give you an example. When you look at the Anti-Gang Unit in Cape Town, the uniform members report to one specific person, but the detectives report to another outside of the unit, at the Organised Crime Unit. So now already you don’t have the same reporting structure. So how do you join the two? How do you make sure that your detectives and your uniform members work together correctly?
Then in terms of corruption. I don’t know if you remember in 2022, actually at the BizNews conference, I exposed the whole thing about a known, very, very well known gang member that was posing in a police vehicle – and he was showing his gang signs in the police vehicle. I think he’s a 27 in the numbers gang. And he’s a known hitman in the Cape Flats. And he was posing in an Anti-Gang Unit vehicle with a big smile on his face. And we reported it to all the necessary people. And guess what? When I walked in to the Anti-Gang Unit, who greets me, one of the first people that greets me in the office is the specific captain whose vehicle was used for that photo. And he allowed the gangs to use that vehicle. And it was a very awkward meet and greet. But the fact that he is still allowed to work there is shocking.
And that tells you what we spoke about earlier, how important integrity management is. Because how on earth did that person just get one warning and not be dismissed from the South African Police Service? I mean, not only did he tarnish the name of the police, he directly, whether directly or indirectly, worked with known gang members. I mean, it’s astounding. It really, it’s not the way of doing so.
I can go on for days regarding the Anti-Gang Unit, but it gives you the idea of what the problem is. And I’m a firm opinion that it’s not necessarily just the members on the ground that have the issue. The problem is a leadership issue.
Ian (17:37.674)
That is what this comes down to.
Chris (17:39.385)
Now Ian, many people believe that the only solution to crushing the gangs is to use brute state force El Salvador style. Would there ever be political will for that kind of anti-crime operation in South Africa?
Ian (17:55.445)
So yes, let me contextualise it once again. It’s not something that you can just do haphazardly because there are certain rights that get taken away with declaring a State of Emergency. So I don’t think it’s just a yes or no answer. I think they are parts of the El Salvador model that would be very much applicable in South Africa.
You know people that are known affiliates of gangs that have all the necessary gang signs whether it’s tattoos, whatever else, they need to face the consequences of associating with certain people They shouldn’t have the freedom to associate with known criminals. It’s that simple and if someone doesn’t like that or if they feel it’s a right being infringed, please take me on for it, but I honestly feel that they need to be the brunt and face the consequences of whoever they associate with and what actions they engage in.
In terms of the further El Salvador model, in terms of prisons, I am also of firm opinion that we need far more prisons. We need to build them at the rate at which the Western Cape government builds schools. And we need to lock them up. We need to fast-track the prosecution process when it comes to any gang-related offense and you need to be removed from society. At the moment, the consequence for being a gangster in South Africa and being involved in organised crime is so low and so little that you can shoot and kill someone and the chances of you being prosecuted successfully is I think less than seven or eight percent.
And when we go to a illicit firearm related arrest, let’s take the Cape Flats as an example. Out of the thousands and thousands of arrests just made by Metro Police and the LEAP program members, just out of those two groups, thousands of arrests have been made, thousands of firearms were seized, and the prosecution rate is still less than 1%. That is an absolute shame, and it’s something that should not be difficult to take on. Something like…
Ian (20:11.34)
….devolution of power with regards to gang-related firearm or illicit firearm activities. Why can’t the City of Cape Town do ballistic testing themselves? Why can’t they speak directly with a prosecutor? Because that’s the way we need to start. And it’s not a matter of taking something away from SAPS. It’s being a force multiplier with SAPS and strengthening SAPS as well as SAPS strengthening the other bodies. But the centralised approach of having the monopoly on the entire law enforcement industry, that mindset needs to change. So in short, I think there is an appetite for parts of it. We need to make sure that whatever is decided aligns with the Constitution and that it’s within the framework of legislation. I think legislation in South Africa is very often underestimated and unfortunately, we’ve seen that legislation is not always used and utilized for the better of society. You know, we’ve got all these opportunities and fantastic pieces of legislation on paper that we don’t necessarily utilise.
Chris Steyn (21:21.541)
Ian, do you find that the committee is getting the necessary support from the Minister of Police and from the GNU?
Ian (21:31.887)
Slowly but surely. It’s difficult to say regarding the broader GNU, but in terms of the Police Minister, there’s definitely an open door and we have been engaging quite a bit. I think at the end of 2024, especially, I think it was very challenging, especially for the minister that he may have drowned a little, not drowned, but just got completely flooded with the amount of complaints and challenges.
Make no mistake that any form of change or reform is making eruptions. And I can clearly see with questions that we ask. For example, if you write to the provincial commissioner in the Western Cape, you will not get an answer from him. General Patekile, I have written to him many times. I’ve written to him about kidnapping cases being open in the Western Cape and being closed without being investigated in Stellenbosch. They are closed, undetected, and if you were to write to him, zero response. If you don’t approach it from a national point of view, you will not get a response from the provincial commissioner. They just simply do not answer you.
So we’ve come to a point where I will now start summoning certain individuals, and I’m not going to give him the luxury of asking the provincial commissioner. I’m going directly to the specific person, the specific manager or commander of a specific unit in the province, and I will now work with them because he can no longer be the so-called intercessor between you and whoever the part of the provincial structure of the police is.
And so, unfortunately, you have in some other provinces too. In Gauteng, for example, if you call the provincial commissioner or if you write to them, you usually always have a timely response. So it depends from place to place.
It is a significant challenge to work with certain senior managers in SAPS. And I don’t think it’s just me. I think it’s the read between the lines that the minister often gets the same kind of pushback.
I listened to a podcast over the weekend. I was busy cycling. And I listened to a podcast that said that for every new level, there is a new devil. And I realised that as we…
Ian (23:51.371)
….develop and we grow and we take on more of these challenges, you need to expect adversity. And it’s about keeping presence of mind during that adversity that you need to push through it. And the guy also said that just because a door is open for you doesn’t mean that everyone would want you to enter. And it’s that simple. So yes, it has taken time.
As I said, some of the departmental hearings have been….some have resulted in dismissals. We’re still waiting for others to be finalised.
In terms of ground level visits, we have seen impact already. We visited the K9 unit in Cape Town. Within a week, they got 16 new dogs. 10111 in Cape Town. I called them. We submitted a complaint about only three people being on duty on a Friday evening.
And within a week, a request went out to start recruiting more members for 10111 and allowing them to be transferred there. Next up, we’ve written to the Department of Public Works about some of the buildings and structures that these members have to work in. It’s just simply not sufficient. This week, we’ve got another few visits lined up. And so it does seem like you do make an impact.
The critical thing for me, and this is what I’m enjoying so much along with Nicholas and Lisa, is that we have actually started submitting parliamentary reports for every single visit we do. So out of the, I think, six bigger official visits that we did over the last two or three weeks, all of them are already with the National Commissioner and with the Minister, and they now need to respond to us. So it becomes difficult for a provincial commissioner, for example, not to answer.
If we look at the Anti-Gang Unit and the circumstances they work in, but then the provincial commissioner says we’ve got it under control, no, you don’t. That’s a blatant lie. You do not have it under control. You are losing the fight. And you’re not allowing your cops to actually go in there and also fight the fight because they’re being utilised for all sorts of other nonsense.
Yeah, I think we are making progress. It’s a matter of time. One thing that we’ll be zooming in on in the next few months…
Ian (26:11.104)
…is to also ask for Section 34 inquiries to determine if people are fit to hold office, that they go through that inquiry process.
We recently had a matter, and because it’s ongoing, I’m not going to say the exact station, but it’s also in the Western Cape in the Winelands, where a specific person’s firearms were handed back to him despite the fact that there was a Protection Order against him, specifically stating that he should not have access to any firearms. So in those types of cases, I want to zoom in on the relevant commander at that police station, specifically the person responsible for doing those types of investigations and then saying, do a section 34 inquiry and come and tell me whether that person is fit for purpose and should be in office. And if not, then they need to go.
And again, for every one we win, I believe the next 10 are knocked out. And so we can keep on rolling.
Chris Steyn (27:16.565)
You know, when you entered politics, I had my reservations, as you well know, because I thought you being so effective as an anti-crime activist, as a civilian, but you felt you could make a bigger difference from the inside. It sounds like that is happening now, Ian.
Ian (27:36.047)
Sure, Chris. Yeah, I mean, it has its days. It’s frustrating sometimes that you can’t just always say everything as you wish and so on. You know, it’s a lot more official. You need to make sure that you bring the relevant paperwork along, you need to put your money where your mouth is. And yes, you know, when I was still with Action Society previously, we did do that. But now you have a whole bunch of serious challenges that are far more in your face. You know, we tend to just go on what we sometimes read in the media and social media, but now it’s a whole combination of extremely serious matters. And it is difficult to prioritize and work through everything. I think the risk is a little bit higher in a certain sense because…I think you have a direct impact on especially financial well-being of certain criminal figures.
But that being said, I think you’ve got access to so much more. And I’m encouraged by the fact that there are so many new and young faces along with more experienced people, especially in Parliament, that seem to be bonding together so, so well, and kind of complementing each other to work forward.
In any case, if I look at the GNU set-up, I read comments sometimes and it almost feels like some people want the GNU to fail, but I don’t think they realise the implication of having MK and EFF come in. And it’s literally a matter of distinguishing between the builders and the breakers. Because if I tell you now, let’s use this latest VAT example. I’m telling you now that if they were there, it would likely not only have been just 2%, it may have probably been more, but apart from, well, somehow they would have pushed it through to get there.
But the point is that we can now act as an influencer, an implementer. We do a lot more and actually get…
Ian (29:54.392)
…results, but the responsibility is also far more that comes with it – and it’s not an easy environment to work in.
Chris Steyn (30:02.531)
Thank you. That was Ian Cameron speaking to BizNews and I’m Chris Steyn. Thank you, Ian.
Ian (30:09.817)
Thanks, Chris.
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