Action SA founder and leader Herman Mashaba has shown pretty much anything is possible in South Africa’s new-look political arena. This week the man who has maintained a virulently anti-ANC stance, turned pragmatic by striking a deal with his avowed rival – in the interests, he says, of breaking the destructive stalemate in Johannesburg, the country’s largest and richest city. He argues that Action SA’s previously unthinkable arrangement with the ANC is in everyone’s best interests. Mashaba spoke to BizNews editor Alec Hogg.
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Highlights from the interview
In this interview, Alec Hogg and Herman Mashaba, leader of ActionSA, discuss various challenges facing Johannesburg and South African politics. Mashaba expresses frustration with how political infighting negatively impacts municipalities, emphasizing that ActionSA stands firmly against such behavior. He critiques other parties for their alleged power struggles, which he believes come at the expense of Johannesburg’s residents.
Mashaba asserts that ActionSA aims to be a constructive opposition, particularly in Gauteng, highlighting the party’s strategic focus on holding the government accountable. He describes the party’s vigorous efforts in the National Assembly, where under Athol Trollip’s leadership, their small team has been remarkably effective.
He also criticizes the ANC and DA coalition for prioritizing positions over public service and condemns DA’s dismissive stance on serious issues like Phala Phala. He expresses concerns about potential constitutional changes proposed by MK and EFF, emphasizing ActionSA’s role in opposing such moves.
Mashaba reveals his personal sacrifices and commitment to the cause, stressing his reliance on family support while engaging in politics without financial gain. He reiterates his strategic decision to avoid Parliament, preferring to influence politics from a more flexible and impactful position. Ultimately, Mashaba remains dedicated to improving South Africa, despite the challenges.
Edited transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
00:00:11:22 – 00:00:35:17
Alec Hogg:
Johannesburg’s in a mess. There’s no question about that. The province of Gauteng is also in a very strange place. As South Africa’s richest province, the place where most of commerce has been done over many, many years, it seems to be in some kind of a terminal decline. Is it? Former mayor of Johannesburg Herman Mashaba founded ActionSA to try and fix all of this.
00:00:35:18 – 00:00:59:00
Alec Hogg:
He vowed that he would never get into a partnership with the ANC, but now it seems he might be. We’ll find out from the man himself. Herman, you’re confusing everybody. You’ve got the business community in a daze. You’re the man I say that we vote for. Yeah, because you’ll never, ever get into a partnership with the ANC. Now it appears as though you are.
00:00:59:00 – 00:01:00:16
Alec Hogg:
What is the story?
00:01:00:18 – 00:01:27:04
Herman Mashaba:
No. Well, Alec, you can only get confused if you want to get confused too, because this established political establishment, they think we are all fools, that we must all dance to their tune at the expense of actually sacrificing our Gauteng to what is basically out in metros. And we’ve watched this development over the last few weeks or so.
00:01:27:05 – 00:01:51:09
Herman Mashaba:
As you are aware, the City of Johannesburg is in a mess. And we’ve been trying, Alec, you know that through many interviews with you and other platforms, that we need to stabilize Johannesburg. Unfortunately, the other parties refused. Now we find ourselves in a situation where ANC partners are also playing games. People are fighting for positions.
00:01:51:11 – 00:02:17:21
Herman Mashaba:
And at the same time, we looked at ourselves as ActionSA and said, with 44 councilors in the City of Johannesburg, we are the third biggest political party. We said, we are not going to watch this movie. People destroying our party when they’re fighting for positions. When the ANC approached us on this matter and called them to my house, and within ten minutes of our meeting, I said, look, I’m not here to play games.
00:02:18:09 – 00:02:45:05
Herman Mashaba:
Guys, we’ve engaged our structures for the 2024 elections and actually came out quite strong from our structures. All three caucuses in Johannesburg, Ekurhuleni, and so on, said, you know, Mr. Mashaba or Herman, as much as we definitely want to play, and he said to free up the opposition.
00:02:45:05 – 00:03:12:01
Herman Mashaba:
But I think there’s an opportunity for us to save our cities by actually playing a meaningful opposition. With all these political games being played by these other political parties, this is our proposal. And they gave me the proposal, which when the ANC called me down and said, first, I sent Michael Beaumont and Funzi Ngobeni, our provincial chairperson, and national chairperson to go and talk to them.
00:03:12:03 – 00:03:36:03
Herman Mashaba:
And two days later, I called them myself to take over the negotiations. And because I’m sure, you know, Alec, I don’t play. So I said to them, let’s not really play games here. We’ve got two seats of the City of Johannesburg to save South Africa. And I’m aware of the politics being played against you. We are happy to save our country, not you.
00:03:36:03 – 00:03:59:08
Herman Mashaba:
We are prepared to save the City of Johannesburg. However, these are the terms for us, and making sure that we can shield you from these political games being played against you. Firstly, they said there’s just no way we can with this kind of media. The job of the mayor is way above his competency.
00:03:59:10 – 00:04:22:23
Herman Mashaba:
Secondly, your guys have just imposed a 200 rand electricity charge on paying residents. And this is totally unacceptable. We’ve engaged our caucus in the City of Johannesburg, I’ve engaged you over the last month or so, and you guys are refusing to listen.
00:04:23:00 – 00:04:56:20
Herman Mashaba:
You have got to withdraw this 200 rand charge. There’s an opportunity for you for revenue enhancement with people who are not paying or are illegally connected. That is the third one. And also, we are not going to sign any agreement with anyone because we’ve realized in this country with all the political parties, you sign an agreement with them, I can tell you, Alec, when it doesn’t suit them, it’s not worth the paper it’s written on. You know what I said to the Premier? You can take my word. We will support you as long as you do the right thing. If you remove this mayor and are prepared to reverse this 200 rand levy, we are prepared to support you.
00:05:20:07 – 00:05:46:11
Herman Mashaba:
You run the executive. We don’t want to co-govern with you. We are not really prepared to determine who must be a mayor. What we are asking you is to put in the right candidate. You have 90 members of council. If you don’t have a competent person, bring someone from outside to run the city. But as ActionSA, we take over the legislature so that we can officially hold you accountable for whatever you do.
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00:05:46:11 – 00:06:07:14
Herman Mashaba:
But at the same time, we don’t expect a one-way street because obviously, as ActionSA, taking over the legislature, that means we have to deploy people into the legislature. Please, in the event of any one of them acting in an unethical manner, please hold us to the same standard that we are going to hold you. I said, let’s have a gentlemen’s agreement.
00:06:07:16 – 00:06:37:07
Herman Mashaba:
We are happy to communicate this to you now, and anyone can hold me to this. If they’re prepared to cooperate, run a clean government, and ensure we turn around the city, we will support them, including helping them clean the city. I ran the city for three years. The records are there. From the second year, when I took over the administration in the first year…
00:06:37:10 – 00:07:02:08
Herman Mashaba:
Remember, when I took over, I inherited a majority of ANC cadres who were placed in jobs not because of what they knew, but who they knew. So I had to immediately conduct skills audits. Some were willing to be trained or moved elsewhere. From the second year, our revenue started improving month by month. We were breaking records. Why? Because I became very unpopular. Remember being called names and so forth? Because I went after anyone cheating the system. Big legal firms, big companies, small companies—anyone who could afford to pay had to pay up. And that’s what we did.
00:07:02:08 – 00:07:29:03
Herman Mashaba:
Our revenue improvement was amazing. I said, we are prepared to assist you in that. But don’t punish law-abiding citizens when you know why you are failing to collect the revenue. That made us ensure that I put my own personal beliefs ahead of my country. I listened to my team, presented it to the ANC. They’re happy, and it’s up to them, obviously, to comply.
00:08:04:20 – 00:08:22:04
Alec Hogg:
So, practically speaking, what does this mean? First of all, it means Herman Mashaba, who said he’d never go into partnership with the ANC, is now supporting them. How does it practically work out? When will you review the way it’s going forward?
00:08:22:09 – 00:08:54:14
Herman Mashaba:
We are not going into partnership with the ANC because we are not taking any executive positions. Let them have the mayor and all the executives. We are just taking over the legislature—the speaker and all the positions to hold the speaker accountable. This scenario, Alec, puts us in a very powerful, productive, and positive engagement where we are opposition with powers. Unlike being in opposition where you just make noise without control, this means the executive can’t do anything without passing through council because we’ll be in charge of council.
00:09:10:04 – 00:09:14:02
Alec Hogg:
Just explain what that means to ratepayers in Johannesburg.
00:09:14:02 – 00:09:39:21
Herman Mashaba:
Being in charge of council means that for the mayor and the executives to execute their plans, they have to be approved by council and go through the speaker and section 79 committees. Those are the committees we will control without having any agreement with the ANC and hold them accountable. We are not going to be an obstructive opposition. If they bring anything that makes sense to this country, like one initiative discussed with the Premier—to bring back the inner city rejuvenation program…
00:10:00:09 – 00:10:28:16
Herman Mashaba:
When I took over the city, there was a 300,000 housing backlog, and informal settlements and squatter camps where people lived in inhumane conditions. We’ve got to reinstitute that. We must bring back the cleaning programs. We’ve got to deal with hijacked buildings. We’ve got to deal with foreign nationals who are in our country illegally.
00:10:28:20 – 00:10:55:05
Herman Mashaba:
Now we can work together as the province and the municipality to reinstate those programs. So that we can clean up the city. We’re not here to make friends. Let’s follow the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. Let us reclaim all these hijacked buildings from criminal syndicates and give them to the private sector to build affordable accommodation for deserving South Africans.
00:10:55:05 – 00:11:28:01
Herman Mashaba:
And that’s really what we are calling for. The Premier is happy with that. We said we don’t want to have a formal document. There’s no point in having an agreement that people don’t respect. You can take my word, and I am happy to confirm that this is what we will do. We will not just pretend to be an unreasonable opposition, but this time around, we will have the power to ensure that any case of mismanagement, corruption, or any malfeasance will be effectively dealt with because it will never pass through Council.
00:11:28:06 – 00:11:56:07
Alec Hogg:
So, if I understand this correctly, the ANC continues to run the executive with their people holding various portfolios. However, before they can get a budget passed or implement operational issues, it has to go through the Council. You are saying that if there are bad decisions, you can control the Council and veto them. Is that correct?
00:11:56:12 – 00:11:57:04
Alec Hogg:
Is that what you mean?
00:11:57:04 – 00:12:22:05
Herman Mashaba:
They would not even be able to veto one thing going to Council. If something does not get through Council, it will never pass. Right now, we are looking at a stalemate. They passed the budget, and now they are holding the ANC to ransom about the R2 billion loan, which is part of the budget.
00:12:22:06 – 00:12:44:05
Herman Mashaba:
They are holding them ransom. We said no, this is unacceptable because, at the moment, without that loan passing through Council, we would not be able to provide services. You can imagine how the citizens are paralyzed. As we know, when we looked at this, we said, you know what?
00:12:44:07 – 00:13:07:15
Herman Mashaba:
These political parties are not actually punishing the ANC. They are punishing the residents. They passed the budget with this loan, and before the ANC can acquire it, it must be passed by Council. Now they are stopping this budget from passing because they want certain positions in the legislature and Council.
00:13:07:15 – 00:13:34:04
Herman Mashaba:
These are issues that have absolutely nothing to do with the residents of Johannesburg. By punishing the residents of Johannesburg, you are ultimately punishing the entire country. Without Johannesburg working, the entire country will not work. It is for this reason we said that, as ActionSA colleagues, we cannot afford to stand by and watch these politicians play political games at the expense of our residents.
00:13:34:09 – 00:13:44:13
Herman Mashaba:
Obviously, they think the residents don’t understand these dynamics. So we said we will bring in a new chapter of politics to the South African political landscape.
00:13:44:15 – 00:13:53:06
Alec Hogg:
And the new chapter is that if you want to play politics for your own ends, for your own gains, we will not let you do that.
00:13:53:08 – 00:14:15:05
Herman Mashaba:
Is this going to change our position? As much as we are saying we’re not really working with the ANC, we want to hold them officially accountable. As I said, you can be in no position, but if you don’t have the powers, we are talking about a completely new game in the South African political landscape.
00:14:15:07 – 00:14:27:18
Herman Mashaba:
We’ve got 44 seats to control. We are the biggest political party in the city of Johannesburg. So we are not going to allow the other parties working with the ANC to play political games at the expense of our residents.
00:14:27:20 – 00:14:32:22
Alec Hogg:
It sounds like it’s a bit of a government of national unity, but in a city setting.
00:14:33:00 – 00:14:56:07
Herman Mashaba:
It’s not a verifiable government of national unity. They have positions in the executive. We are very far from signing anything with anyone. We don’t want a single position in the executive. The mayor must remain in the executive. We are not interested in the executive at this point.
00:14:56:08 – 00:15:06:10
Alec Hogg:
But you are interested in who is the mayor. The mayor before that point— you need to be happy that it’s the right mayor, because you don’t like the current mayor.
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00:15:06:15 – 00:15:31:12
Herman Mashaba:
Yes, absolutely. It is important. We cannot afford to have another inadequate leader. We need a credible, ethical person in that role. We are not prepared to dictate to the ANC who they must appoint, but we ask them to please do us a favor.
00:15:31:12 – 00:15:51:03
Herman Mashaba:
Don’t bring in a compromised individual known throughout the country as being compromised. That’s why we even went to the extent of saying, if you don’t have a competent person within your ranks, you have the liberty to find a competent person to come and run the city.
00:15:51:06 – 00:15:52:16
Herman Mashaba:
We will give you the support.
00:15:52:22 – 00:16:10:21
Alec Hogg:
What does this mean for the other metros in Gauteng where you have a significant presence, such as Tshwane and Ekurhuleni? Might you now break with your current partners there?
00:16:10:23 – 00:16:38:15
Herman Mashaba:
Not really. We are going to follow the same pattern in any area that is experiencing similar paralysis as Johannesburg. Our agreement with the ANC was to focus on Johannesburg first. Then, in two weeks’ time, we will move on to Ekurhuleni, following the same pattern. However, we are still talking to our colleagues, which we said is fine.
00:16:38:15 – 00:17:19:10
Herman Mashaba:
It’s actually about making sure that we have a smooth execution of this process. Let’s start with Johannesburg and then move on to Ekurhuleni. The only issue we have faced is that the DA has been blocking things. Remember, 18 months ago, when the ANC had the mayor, we called for the resignation of the mayor and asked them to bring in someone who could respect us. After the 2021 local government elections, they gave us a very arrogant and disrespectful mayor.
00:17:19:15 – 00:17:44:00
Herman Mashaba:
We called for the resignation of the mayor, and they eventually brought in Cilliers Brink, who is working quite well with us. However, the ANC has now brought a motion of no confidence against him. We issued a statement on Saturday that will protect him. As you are aware, the DA sabotaged the election of the speaker.
00:17:44:03 – 00:18:11:00
Herman Mashaba:
At the time of the mayoral election, there was a vacancy for the speaker, and all coalition partners agreed that the speaker position would go to ActionSA. For some reason, the DA decided to spoil their votes, resulting in an ANC-EFF-controlled speaker. We have been fighting this matter in court without DA support.
00:18:11:03 – 00:18:42:07
Herman Mashaba:
This matter, without a doubt, was deliberately sabotaged by the DA. We ended up with an ATM councilor as the speaker. The ANC is happy to remove that speaker and allow the proper election of an ActionSA speaker.
00:18:42:09 – 00:19:13:22
Alec Hogg:
It’s a very confusing situation for those not directly involved. But if we start at the top, we have the government of national unity where you are not a member and not involved. The intention was always for this government of national unity, which includes the ANC, DA, and IFP, to trickle down to the provinces and cities.
00:19:14:00 – 00:19:39:12
Alec Hogg:
It hasn’t worked in the province of Gauteng, where there have been significant differences of opinion between the ruling ANC and the national ANC. Are you suggesting that at the city level, it will also be independently managed, free from the instructions of both national and provincial governments?
00:19:39:12 – 00:19:41:15
Alec Hogg:
Can we read that much into this decision?
00:19:41:15 – 00:20:13:00
Herman Mashaba:
What you can infer is that the government of national unity in the province has had a negative impact on Johannesburg, Ekurhuleni, and other areas. We cannot be expected to sit back and watch people fighting for positions. The breakdown in operations is due to people fighting for positions.
00:20:13:02 – 00:20:42:07
Herman Mashaba:
Unfortunately, in the process, it’s affecting the municipalities. ActionSA is in an ideal position to say, “Not in our name. We’re not going to watch you fight for positions while the residents of Johannesburg are suffering.” We need to use the mandate given to us by the voters to defend our country.
00:20:42:09 – 00:20:59:09
Alec Hogg:
If you are going to support or at least not criticize the ANC in Johannesburg and Ekurhuleni, as you accuse other political parties of doing, what is your position on the Gauteng government?
00:20:59:11 – 00:21:23:01
Herman Mashaba:
Well, I think that is a matter the so-called grand coalition must sort out. It has nothing to do with us. Our view is that this is not part of any arrangement with this grand coalition, which we should call the government of national unity. We are comfortable being an effective opposition, as we are right now in the National Assembly under the leadership of Athol Trollip, who is doing an amazing job.
00:21:23:03 – 00:21:49:11
Herman Mashaba:
We haven’t actually deployed them; I told them to act like they were a team of 16. The other day, I was talking to them, and despite there being only six of them, they are working very hard, making appearances in as many committees as possible and providing constructive input into debates. ActionSA will be a constructive opposition both at the provincial and national levels.
00:21:49:17 – 00:22:25:12
Herman Mashaba:
The political space in South Africa is wide open for ActionSA. There are two main groups: one led by the ANC and the DA, and another, what they call a progressive coalition of MK and the EFF. There is no one in between. This creates an opportunity for ActionSA to stand up for the people of South Africa because the grand coalition is focused on political positions.
00:22:25:16 – 00:22:54:02
Herman Mashaba:
That’s why we’ve ended up with the largest government on earth, and people don’t see anything wrong with it. I was shocked a few days ago when the DA claimed that Phala Phala is not as bad as Nkandla. I thought, my goodness, these are the same people who a few months ago made a big issue out of Phala Phala. It is a huge issue. We cannot accept living in a country where the president is involved in money laundering and say it is not a big deal.
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00:22:54:07 – 00:23:19:00
Herman Mashaba:
Crime is crime, especially when committed by the president of the country. You can already see where this grand coalition is heading. On the other hand, MK and the EFF want to change our constitution to remove the Constitutional Court and allow for the expropriation of property without compensation. I live in my house, which I have paid for and owe no one else, yet they want to take it for the state. This is why ActionSA’s role is crucial as an opposition.
00:23:19:01 – 00:23:44:02
Herman Mashaba:
We’ve been given an opportunity in the three metros to play a crucial role. We are not just going to be a symbolic opposition; we intend to actively fight against corruption, maladministration, and wrongdoing. This is necessary to address the issues happening in our country and cities.
00:23:44:02 – 00:24:18:08
Herman Mashaba:
ActionSA will approach this pragmatically. I remember when I spoke to you after the elections, I was devastated. Last time, I mentioned that I accepted the situation and saw opportunities. I remember attending a session on synchronicity many years ago, about 30 years ago.
00:24:18:08 – 00:24:40:12
Herman Mashaba:
I see these opportunities happening now and believe ActionSA can make a significant impact.
00:25:34:14 – 00:26:05:12
Herman Mashaba:
You must learn that when bad things happen, or anything particularly bad happens to you, just leave it to the Almighty to decide. Act in good faith, and things will work out. Everything happens for a reason. Look at the positive, powerful position ActionSA is in, as we aim to instill some sense into these politicians without getting paid for the job.
00:26:05:13 – 00:26:25:22
Herman Mashaba:
I have to rely on my family to survive, but at the same time, I am committed to this cause. I thought that after the elections, I would get a chance to relax and that things would settle down. I can tell you it has been crazier in the last two weeks than you can imagine.
00:26:26:04 – 00:26:49:02
Herman Mashaba:
The execution of this task will be demanding. If I were in Parliament, I would not have the opportunity to be involved in this. I remember discussing with my wife when I decided not to go to Parliament. I said I wanted to play a strategic role because, for me, being president or mayor is the last job I would want.
00:26:49:02 – 00:26:55:16
Herman Mashaba:
But I love this continual effort to eventually make a difference in my beautiful country.
00:26:55:18 – 00:26:59:18
Alec Hogg:
Herman Mashaba, leader of ActionSA. I’m Alec Hogg from BizNews.com
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