South Africa’s Justice Minister Thembi Simelane is expected to appear before Parliament’s Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional development on Friday to be questioned over an alleged link to the VBS Bank scandal. In this interview with BizNews, ActionSA’s Parliamentary caucus leader Athol Trollip lists all the “red flags” in her case – and says: “She needs to be held to account in a court of law. That’s the only place that’s going to have any credibility.” He also gives an update on in-depth discussions over the coalition future of Tshwane. He gives the assurance that although “the people of Tshwane have found it very difficult working with the DA”, ActionSA is “not going to be pushed into a motion of No Confidence (in DA Mayor Cillier Brink) because the ANC wants to do it today so that they can get their hands on Tshwane”. Trollip also renews his call for lifestyle audits to fight corruption – and gives examples of cases that make it imperative for “a couple of tall trees to be blown over”.
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Highlights from the Interview
In this interview, Athol Trollip, ActionSA’s parliamentary leader, addresses critical issues surrounding corruption and governance in South Africa. He emphasizes the need for effective leadership, particularly in municipalities like Tshwane, where political dynamics should be closely monitored to ensure residents are receiving the best possible services. Trollip reiterates his call for lifestyle audits to fight corruption, highlighting the need to investigate public officials who appear to live far beyond their means. He mentions cases of former ministers and municipal officials who own extravagant assets that seem inconsistent with their official incomes.
Trollip also references the VBS Mutual Bank scandal, where the bank was looted, leading to significant financial losses, particularly impacting municipalities and ordinary citizens. He criticizes the lack of accountability for those involved, arguing that such incidents highlight the systemic corruption plaguing the country. Trollip draws a comparison to Singapore’s Lee Kuan Yew, who successfully combated corruption through decisive and harsh actions against those who violated public trust. He stresses that South Africa needs similar strong measures, including prosecuting those who participated in the VBS scandal, to restore integrity in the public sector.
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Edited transcript of the Interview
00:00:13:23 – 00:00:36:17
Chris Steyn:
South Africa’s Justice Minister is expected to appear before Parliament’s Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on Friday, to be questioned over an alleged link to the VBS bank scandal. One of the parties driving action is ActionSA, and its Parliamentary Caucus Leader, Mr. Athol Trollip, is with us now. Welcome, Athol.
00:00:36:19 – 00:00:39:11
Athol Trollip:
Hello, Chris. Thanks very much for having me on your show.
00:00:39:13 – 00:00:43:13
Chris Steyn:
Okay. Tell us what your party has done so far.
00:00:43:15 – 00:01:08:08
Athol Trollip:
Well, first of all, like any South African or journalist, or anyone who reads the news, on Monday morning, we read the story that, for instance, I could put out joining some dots around the Minister of Justice, Ms. Simelane. Immediately, red flags went up for us because, you know, conflict of interest for someone in a position like hers is a major problem.
00:01:08:10 – 00:01:35:18
Athol Trollip:
But this issue is about a number of conflicts of interest. First of all, Simelane was the mayor of Polokwane when Polokwane unlawfully invested around R350 million into the VBS bank. So, there she had a conflict of interest. And then, as soon as the commissions started flowing to the brokerage or the person who invested the money on behalf of the municipality, she took out a loan.
00:01:35:22 – 00:02:03:05
Athol Trollip:
Now, that could not be coincidental. And that’s what pricked my interest at first, because, as the mayor, she should never have allowed this to happen. And two, she should not have been seeking to make a loan from the brokerage that had invested money illegally. Because not only that, the elderly lost their life savings in VBS, and many municipalities lost millions of rands, and those are taxpayers’ money.
00:02:03:05 – 00:02:28:19
Athol Trollip:
So she facilitated the investment. She obviously okayed it, and then she made a loan to buy a coffee shop and took a number of steps. The first step that I took, Chris, was to write to the Public Protector to ask her for an urgent, independent investigation. She wrote back within two or three days to say that she would respond to me within ten days.
00:02:28:19 – 00:02:52:04
Athol Trollip:
So I’m expecting a response this week. But just to avoid any feigning of not knowing what’s going on, I also wrote to the president to inform him that I had asked the Public Protector for this independent and urgent investigation. I think that’s what probably prompted the president to call the minister to come and explain herself. But then, to take it one step further, I also wrote to the speaker because I asked one of my staff to do some investigation into the executive member’s declarations to see whether she had actually ever declared this loan and the terms of the loan and whether she declared the coffee shop or bistro that she bought with this money. We couldn’t find that.
00:02:52:07 – 00:03:14:08
Athol Trollip:
So I wrote to the speaker to ask her to provide me with the declaration as soon as she became a minister in this term of office. In her previous term, she was also a minister, though not the Minister of Justice, but she was around before. So it would be very interesting to see whether she did declare that because if anything is above board, it should be easy to declare.
00:03:14:08 – 00:03:34:05
Athol Trollip:
But if it’s not above board, people generally don’t declare it until they get caught. What then happened was last week, there was a question by a member of the Democratic Alliance to the Minister of Justice as to why it was possible for the United States of America to secure a prosecution of a Mr. Ayres, who was found guilty of corruption and corrupting officials.
00:03:34:05 – 00:04:01:08
Athol Trollip:
He was mentioned in the State Capture Report. So, I guess the big issue is why a foreign country found one of their own guilty of corruption for corrupting South Africans, yet we, who set up the Zondo Commission into state capture for all the many very good reasons or bad reasons, haven’t been able to secure prosecution yet.
00:04:01:10 – 00:04:22:22
Athol Trollip:
Curiously, when that question was put, the minister was in the House in Parliament, but she didn’t answer the question. She asked her deputy minister to answer, which immediately raised even more suspicion. I then asked a follow-up question to say, would it not be much better or more proper for the Department of Justice to be relieved of a minister who is under a cloud of suspicion, and that she should either be suspended or step down until proven innocent?
00:04:23:00 – 00:04:53:09
Athol Trollip:
Now, what we don’t want, and we don’t trust, whether she appears before the ANC Integrity Commission or whatever it’s called, is neither here nor there. Whatever explanation she gives to the president, as far as we’re concerned, is neither here nor there because we don’t trust any of that stuff. I mean, even the president himself is under a cloud around the Phala Phala foreign currency that was stolen from his couch.
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00:05:17:16 – 00:05:40:09
Athol Trollip:
Now, in my understanding, if money is not dirty, it gets kept in the bank or in your wallet. But why would you keep money in the couch? To me, the obvious explanation is that the money is dirty, and you’re hiding it in a place where you think people won’t look for it. So the president himself is not beyond reproach.
00:05:40:09 – 00:06:14:17
Athol Trollip:
So, we want this to be opened up in public. In fact, we need it to be opened up in public because we, as South Africans, need a Minister of Justice who is completely beyond reproach. The Minister of Justice also presides over the National Prosecuting Authority. Let me give you a shocking statistic. I’ve just written to the minister herself today, asking her in a parliamentary question what she’s doing about the fact that in the High Court in Johannesburg, there’s now a five-year backlog to get a court date.
00:06:14:19 – 00:06:39:23
Athol Trollip:
So, if you break the law in Gauteng and you go to the Johannesburg High Court, and the National Prosecuting Authority wants to prosecute you, they will get a date in 2029. Now, you can imagine that if the Minister of Justice is to preside over a matter that affects her, she might delay it interminably until 2059. So, we can’t have that. Sorry, that was my light going off automatically because I haven’t moved for a while.
00:06:40:01 – 00:06:53:13
Athol Trollip:
If the Minister of Justice is to preside over a matter that affects her, she might delay it interminably until 2059. So, we can’t have that. Sorry, it was a long interview.
00:06:53:13 – 00:07:05:16
Chris Steyn:
No, no, quite. I saw somewhere that this coffee shop of hers in Sandton was apparently not very busy and often closed early. I don’t know if that is correct. I don’t know whether you’ve heard anything.
00:07:05:18 – 00:07:27:06
Athol Trollip:
I did read it. I read exactly the same story. The coffee shop, a bistro, is in Friedman Place—or Palace Friedman, something like that—in Sandton. And when I read that article, I thought, this has all the hallmarks of money laundering, where you have, ostensibly, a coffee shop, but it doesn’t really operate as a coffee shop.
00:07:27:07 – 00:07:50:05
Athol Trollip:
I mean, in that story, people are saying that the manager arrives once or twice a week and leaves early, and that there are never really many people in there. So look, this story has got many red flags about it. And that’s why it’s more important than ever before that the minister gets held to account, and she needs to be held to account in a court of law.
00:07:50:05 – 00:07:53:02
Athol Trollip:
That’s the only place that’s going to have any credibility.
00:07:53:04 – 00:08:09:16
Chris Steyn:
Right? As a follow-up, here’s my question: I’ll take you to the coalition controversy in Tshwane, where residents are anxiously awaiting a call from ActionSA to see which way the city is going to go. Can you give us an update, please?
00:08:09:18 – 00:08:33:03
Athol Trollip:
Yeah. Look, I can. I’m just going to give you a rather generic background because I’m not in Tshwane or in Gauteng, but I am a member of the Senate, and we’ve had in-depth discussions about what’s going on there. Look, politics is a very fraught environment right now, and things have changed a lot since May 29th.
00:08:33:12 – 00:08:58:15
Athol Trollip:
The election. So, all political parties have reevaluated their positions. For example, there are people now in government with the ANC who also vowed never to govern with the ANC. And, there was the issue between the DA and the PA that actually brought the government of Joburg to its knees because the DA refused to work with the PA, and now they’re together in the Government of National Unity.
00:08:58:17 – 00:09:20:07
Athol Trollip:
So there’s some history there. You know, we’re very sad that the DA walked out of the government in Johannesburg. It was their own Mayor, Mpho Phalatse, in those days, and they left Johannesburg to its own devices. We had a number of mayors—Capello followed by Commando—who were clearly an abject disaster and not good for the city.
00:09:20:09 – 00:09:45:03
Athol Trollip:
And now in Tshwane, there’s a perception that the municipality is doing quite well. Even the Auditor General, despite finding some negative aspects, generally said it’s one of the better-performing, if not the second-best performing, metros in the country. We are also part of that government. We have a deputy mayor there. In fact, we’ve been in that coalition since before Cilliers Brink arrived in Tshwane.
00:09:45:03 – 00:10:07:04
Athol Trollip:
He was a member of the National Assembly. So, we are essentially part of that government. The ANC has been trying to get into that government for a long time, and they are largely responsible for the mess that Tshwane is in because they were in government for a long, long time before the DA and then the coalition government, and even the DA has a checkered track record in Tshwane.
00:10:07:04 – 00:10:35:13
Athol Trollip:
Let’s be very frank about that. There were a couple of dodgy mayors there, and there was a quick succession of mayoral musical chairs. And so, Tshwane has had a lot of its own problems, but there is some improvement, and the expectation is that the government is doing well. But I said recently to somebody that, you know, hurt people hurt people, and the people of Tshwane have found it very difficult working with the DA.
00:10:35:13 – 00:11:08:00
Athol Trollip:
And, you know, the DA has got a track record of being quite arrogant in government. Interestingly, the Freedom Front Plus voted against the DA in a number of governments in the Western Cape for the same reasons—haughtiness, not treating partners properly, etc. So we experienced a similar situation that Cilliers Brink might be going through right now. When we were in the coalition, we were supposed to get the position of Speaker in Tshwane.
00:11:08:02 – 00:11:39:06
Athol Trollip:
But when the voting took place, all the DA councilors spoiled their ballots. And the Speaker who was then elected was not an ActionSA speaker; it was a speaker from the African Independent Congress, who has just been a lackey of the ANC and the EFF since then. The DA has done nothing to address that situation. So we’ve got people in our party who say, “Listen, the DA doesn’t honor its agreements, yet they expect everyone else to honor theirs.”
00:11:39:08 – 00:12:04:03
Athol Trollip:
And what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. We also had some very painful and personal experiences during the Multi-Party Charter negotiations with the DA, where they made all sorts of commitments that weren’t in discussions. They weren’t in discussions with the ANC, but it’s now come out that they were. So, you know, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Once bitten, twice shy. So we are very circumspect about our relationship with the DA in Tshwane.
00:12:04:03 – 00:12:24:01
Athol Trollip:
And I just think that we’ve got to be very careful, all of us, including the DA. The DA should treat its partners better if they want their partners to treat them better. But I also don’t think it’s prudent in politics to cut off one’s nose to spite one’s face because it does nobody any good to do that. So I would appeal to all the people involved in these discussions and negotiations—and if they want any discussions and negotiations, they better start them sooner rather than later—because what the electorate wants is to see parties working together to put their interests first, not the parties’ interests first.
00:12:49:22 – 00:13:23:13
Athol Trollip:
So that’s where we are, and I can assure you—and to assure your members and listeners and people who are going to watch this podcast—that we are involved, we are taking this very, very seriously. Even though our president is currently out of the country, we are in constant contact with each other, and we are currently undergoing a review process in Tshwane, interacting with voters, conducting polls, and assessing government’s successes and failures so that whatever decision we do take, we will do it on an informed basis.
00:13:23:13 – 00:13:42:02
Athol Trollip:
But what we are not going to do and what we should never allow to happen is to be pushed into a motion of no confidence because the ANC wants to do it today so that they can get their hands on Tshwane. That should never be the reason to enter into a motion of no confidence.
00:13:42:04 – 00:13:52:12
Chris Steyn:
Well, meanwhile, your party is already in a working arrangement with the African National Congress in Johannesburg. I know it’s early days yet, but have you seen any benefits for the voters so far?
00:13:52:14 – 00:14:30:02
Athol Trollip:
Okay, that’s a very interesting observation because, after the 2024 elections, we didn’t go into the Government of National Unity. I’d headed up a caucus in the National Assembly, and we took a decision as a party that we would be a constructive opposition. I told Ramaphosa, right from the first day, that we will support the government where we can, and we’ll hold them to account where we can’t. Where we find ourselves right now, I think, is ideally situated in South African politics because you’ve got an amalgamation of parties that have been around for the past 30 years in the Government of National Unity, and you’ve got an amalgamation of parties that call themselves the Progressive Caucus.
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00:14:30:02 – 00:14:53:06
Athol Trollip:
But in actual fact, they really are a regressive caucus, and they’ve been around for ten years, and one of the parties, the MK, only for about six months. So we are slap bang in the middle, and I think we are going to be the fulcrum of South African politics because we’re neither in the one nor the other, and we can be objective and hold both to account.
00:14:53:08 – 00:15:21:07
Athol Trollip:
In Johannesburg, we took a decision that we would guide a cooperative agreement but not take up executive positions with the ANC, because the ANC has got some dodgy partners there. So we’ve said we will go in and support them on an issue-by-issue basis, as long as we can get the Speaker position because that controls the legislature, and a couple of mayoral committee chairman positions of portfolio committees, because that’s where you really hold the government to account.
00:15:21:09 – 00:15:47:14
Athol Trollip:
So we’re not in government with the ANC, but we have a cooperative agreement so that we can put Johannesburg first. In Tshwane, we are in a coalition with the DA, the Freedom Front Plus, and I think one other party. And, you know, we’ve got a really smart mayor, Cilliers Brink. He’s a smart guy, and we’ve got a very smart deputy mayor.
00:15:47:16 – 00:16:10:04
Athol Trollip:
And I believe that the perception is that people believe they’re getting the job done. And if you can get the job done under the current political environment, then the voters and ratepayers of Tshwane are receiving the best deal. We need to always look at that. If the deal is not right and it needs to be re-evaluated, then do so, but always try to put people first.
00:16:10:06 – 00:16:21:12
Chris Steyn:
Okay. I just want to ask you, I noticed earlier that you had renewed your call for lifestyle audits to fight corruption. What inspired you to make that call again?
00:16:21:15 – 00:16:46:06
Athol Trollip:
Well, there are so many reasons, Chris. You know, if you read the Sunday papers, and I know some of the stories are salacious and you never know what to believe, but, you know, I read some stories about past ministers who own a hundred coal trucks. Now, you know, to buy a hundred coal trucks, those vehicles cost anywhere between one and 2.5 million rand.
00:16:46:06 – 00:17:13:05
Athol Trollip:
So let’s say you own 100 of them—that’s 200 million rand. Where does someone with a ministerial salary get the money to own 200 coal transportation trucks? The next question that follows is: no wonder the railway lines are broken, vandalized, and made inoperable. Because if you want to run trucks on the road and make money out of it, then you must make sure that the rail doesn’t work.
00:17:13:06 – 00:17:41:11
Athol Trollip:
So these are the things that go off in my mind. In many developed or developing countries, bulk freight like coal and manganese is not allowed to be transported on the road. That’s why you actually have rail systems. And South Africa, for all of its past sins, had one of the most sophisticated and developed rail networks in the whole country, and now it just doesn’t work because it’s not in the interests of the people who are making the decisions.
00:17:41:11 – 00:18:06:17
Athol Trollip:
So that’s one of the reasons. The other reason is that I, like you and many other South Africans, read a story about a CFO—a chief financial officer—of a municipality who’s going through a divorce with his wife. She wants 240,000 or 250,000 rand in alimony. Now, that’s quite curious because the guy only earns about 120,000, and I say “only” with my tongue in my cheek.
00:18:06:20 – 00:18:34:02
Athol Trollip:
The guy earns 120,000 a month, which is one hell of a salary. But his wife wants 240,000, and to justify that, she tells the court that they live in an 18 million rand mansion. They have a number of supercars that they drive around in. They go on shopping sprees, some costing 88,000 rand, with him getting a 15,000 rand haircut and 15,000 rand sneakers, and so on.
00:18:34:02 – 00:18:52:17
Athol Trollip:
And then they go overseas periodically, always traveling first class and this kind of thing. And then immediately you’ve got to ask yourself, well, how do they sustain that? We’ve got a president who promised us in his first term that he would have lifestyle audits of all the people in government, especially his cabinet ministers.
00:18:52:19 – 00:19:12:21
Athol Trollip:
We haven’t seen the outcome of those. The reality is nothing’s going to change in South Africa until something changes drastically. What you need to do is make an example. If I can think of Lee Kuan Yew in Singapore, he made a couple of commitments, and one of the commitments was that he was going to stop corruption.
00:19:12:21 – 00:19:35:09
Athol Trollip:
He didn’t say, “I’m going to try to ameliorate or reduce corruption.” He said he was going to stop corruption. And the first minister who went overseas without declaring his trip with a multinational company, when he landed at the airport back in Singapore, was arrested and sent to jail. He protested and said he’d done nothing wrong, like everyone says. Minister Simelane says she’s done nothing wrong.
00:19:35:11 – 00:19:58:18
Athol Trollip:
Everyone protests innocence. I’ve never known a criminal to say, “Yes, I’m guilty,” until they’re pushed into a corner where they either plead guilty or become a state witness. That minister was sentenced to jail because Lee Kuan Yew wanted to make an example. If we want to change the way people conduct themselves in this country, we need a couple of tall trees to be blown over.
00:19:58:20 – 00:20:24:16
Athol Trollip:
We need a minister to be exposed for living beyond their means. We need a municipal manager to be exposed for living beyond their means. Now things are starting to happen. My media officer just told me right now that a former Eskom employee has been sentenced to 15 years in jail for falsifying his qualifications in order to access a senior position.
00:20:24:18 – 00:20:47:12
Athol Trollip:
Now, I’m excited about that because if an official can be sent to jail for 15 years for falsifying their qualifications, imagine what we can do to these people who live in 18 million rand homes and live the kind of lifestyle that the CFO does. You could send him to jail for the rest of his life. Those are the kinds of examples that we need in South Africa.
00:20:47:13 – 00:21:01:09
Chris Steyn:
Thank you. That was Athol Trollip, ActionSA parliamentary leader, speaking to BizNews about corruption and coalitions. And I’m Chris Steyn. Thank you, Athol.
00:21:01:15 – 00:21:02:16
Athol Trollip:
Thank you very much, Chris.
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