In this week’s Sunday Show with Neil de Beer, he dissects the coalition battles between the DA and ActionSA leader Herman Mashaba in Gauteng, where Tshwane Mayor Cilliers Brink is becoming “cannon fodder”, and between the FF Plus in the Western Cape where Corné Mulder “is not standing back and has decided to continue removing the DA out of power”. De Beer asks: “..what the hell is going on in the spirit of the GNU. Because everything that is happening on the top shelf is absolutely collapsing on the bottom end…it seems we’re going for a full blown war in 2026 between the parties.” De Beer describes how ANC Gauteng Premier Panyaza Lesufi and Vice-President Paul Mashatile are positioning themselves towards the ANC elective conference. “…Lesufi is 100% making himself politically relevant. You can clearly see that Paul Mashatile is dreading either the knock of The Hawks or the people just staying calm so that he can take that seat.” De Beer also speaks about the battle for the soul of the judiciary with Justice Minister Thembi Simelane and former judge John Hlophe in the firing line. And PA Minister Gayton Mckenzie gets a thumbs up from him for his handling of a Parliamentary war-of-words with EFF CIC Julius Malema.
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Highlights from the Interview
In this interview with Chris Steyn, Neil de Beer discusses the political dynamics within South Africa, focusing on two key figures: Panyaza Lesufi and Paul Mashatile, both vying for influence within the ANC. De Beer emphasizes the rising political relevance of Lesufi and Mashatile’s careful positioning amidst internal ANC factionalism. He also touches on the role of Herman Mashaba, who may be collaborating with Lesufi to regain control of key municipalities in Gauteng, enhancing ANC’s power in the economic hub.
De Beer then turns to the challenges within the ANC, highlighting the role of factionalism, especially the MK faction, which he believes could have a significant impact in the 2026 elections. He warns of a turbulent political landscape as various factions compete for control.
On law enforcement, De Beer praises Police Minister Bheki Cele for acknowledging the collapse of crime intelligence within the police, viewing this as an opportunity to rebuild. He also commends efforts to combat extortion in Mthatha by reclaiming buildings seized by criminals.
De Beer concludes by discussing the need for expanded prison infrastructure, suggesting new prisons be built in the Karoo. He emphasizes the importance of coordination between police, correctional services, and the Ministry of Justice to ensure effective law enforcement.
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Edited transcript of the Interview
00:00:13:23 – 00:00:29:13
Chris Steyn
The dark and ugly side of South African politics was on full display this week in Parliament, in council chambers, and in court. We’ll hear all about it on the Sunday show with Neil de Beer. Morning, Neil.
00:00:29:15 – 00:00:54:13
Neil de Beer
Morning, Chris. But can I tell you, before the dark and gloom of the epoch of politics creeps in, I want to officially—and I’m sure I speak for everyone—congratulate the Springbok rugby team for bringing home the Freedom Cup once again. What a day, what a moment of unity for so many people. So, to them and all the other teams…
00:00:54:15 – 00:01:04:19
Neil de Beer
I say keep going, because we need a little bit of sunshine between all these dark clouds. So, oppi Bokke, you just keep getting better.
00:01:04:21 – 00:01:29:13
Chris Steyn
Thank you, Neil. Meanwhile, calls are intensifying for the justice minister to step down amid an investigation into a loan from a VBS-linked broker. What did you think of Glynnis Breytenbach trying to hold her to account in Parliament this week? What did you think of the answers she gave Glynnis?
00:01:29:15 – 00:01:48:03
Neil de Beer
I get so many emails now, and I want to thank everyone who’s been writing to me. One of the things people ask is where I get my info from. I want to make it clear, Chris: we don’t just sit the week out and then on Sunday read the report from the Sunday Times or IOL or News24.
00:01:48:05 – 00:02:14:14
Neil de Beer
I actually speak to people inside. I have enough sources, as do you. So I just want to clarify—our view is that we actually put work into this show. We go and scratch where others don’t. We tap into resources others don’t have, and we actually get calls from people who won’t admit it. So, I want to tell you that when you sit here on a Sunday, you’re getting some nuances others don’t.
00:02:14:16 – 00:02:48:16
Neil de Beer
Now, what’s the inside story? I never want to be on the other side of a questioning session by Glynnis Breytenbach. She’s not an ordinary member of Parliament. We must understand that Glynnis was a top prosecutor, a top investigator, before entering politics. So when this matter of VBS broke, I knew that once it went to Parliament for questioning, the minister had better be prepared.
00:02:48:18 – 00:03:18:07
Neil de Beer
Let me tell you, Glynnis is one to be feared. The absolute scenario where a Minister of Justice—this is the crux, Chris—this is no ordinary minister. What happens in other ministries may not count, but I want to put it out there. I’ve seen it happen in many countries, specifically Zimbabwe, where I was present, as you know, for a period of time.
00:03:18:09 – 00:04:10:10
Neil de Beer
Zimbabwe collapsed not because of land grabs or injustices alone, but when the judiciary became 100% captured by the state. This is a fact. What we’re seeing in this country is an absolute disregard and disrespect for the Department of Justice and the judiciary. Politically, I think we have a lot to worry about when the Minister of Justice tries to explain that she didn’t take money from VBS but received a loan from the company that orchestrated the loan of over R300 million from a municipality into VBS.
00:04:10:12 – 00:04:43:19
Neil de Beer
And when Glynnis asked, “But you were the executive mayor; the buck stops with you,” she evaded the question. These were Glynnis’s questions. The minister then offered the trivial excuse: “In hindsight, I now realize this was a problem.” Well, you don’t get to use hindsight as an excuse when you’re at the top. This minister doesn’t understand that the buck stops with her. And this is the Minister of Justice. The questions were straightforward, but not one provided relief. Unfortunately, more questions than answers arose.
00:04:43:19 – 00:05:06:14
Chris Steyn
In another fight for justice, the Democratic Alliance is urgently challenging the designation of former Judge John Hlophe before the Judicial Service Commission. This case is now being heard by the Western Cape High Court. Neil, as a future MP, what are your thoughts?
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00:05:06:16 – 00:05:59:11
Neil de Beer
It’s another showdown, isn’t it? Watching it unfold, you see the attempts of some people—who shall remain unnamed—trying to intimidate others. It doesn’t always work.
00:05:59:11 – 00:06:31:17
Neil de Beer
I think justice is another thing. This is not a light matter. We have an impeached Judge President of the Western Cape, who was removed and found not fit to act as a judge, now going to a level of public process, becoming a parliamentarian. And then they put him on the Judicial Service Commission. I mean, Chris, this won’t stop. What is this? It’s like taking a wolf and telling it, “You’ve got to preside over this.” Am I the only one who finds this crazy? So I support the fact, no matter if it’s the DA or anybody else, to try and say that we cannot have an impeached judge preside over the selection of future judges. This just doesn’t make sense. It’s not common sense.
00:06:31:17 – 00:06:54:23
Neil de Beer
And I absolutely hope that the people sitting on the bench will look at this and say they agree. We cannot have this. It’s another huge blow to the judiciary. We have to keep the independence of the judiciary in this country. If there’s one thing we must defend, it is the fact that we have a justice system that must and will remain independent.
00:07:23:06 – 00:07:41:10
Chris Steyn
Still in Parliament this week, though slightly comical, was another tiff between former buddies: Economic Freedom Fighters’ Commander-in-Chief Julius Malema and Patriotic Alliance leader Gayton McKenzie. Did you listen to that, Neil?
00:07:41:11 – 00:08:17:21
Neil de Beer
I did! He called the man a cockroach, and then Gayton called him a bandit. I mean, my goodness, is this public order? One can only sit back and realize that some of those 400 people who entered Parliament have now joined a bigger circus. But if you look at the sense of debate, if you look at the seriousness and the crucial period that this country is in—this time of transition, where we need a total economic turnaround, where we are still suffering as business South Africa, and still complaining that we have not yet regained what we’ve lost—surely there must be other matters that can take our esteemed honorable members’ time and put them into a place where they are 100% focused on governing this country on our behalf, the citizens.
00:08:17:23 – 00:08:47:01
Neil de Beer
But to sit there, and with the EFF doing the usual disturbances… I must tell you, though, I am very happy that for once there is a person—no matter if you like him or not, like Gayton McKenzie—who will get up and say, “No more.” You are not going to get away with bullying us. You’ve been bullying people for more than 10 or 12 years, so I liked it.
00:08:47:03 – 00:09:09:17
Neil de Beer
The use of those words, though… You know, the word “cockroach” might be something you see within drains or pipes within the institutions, but there is a sensitivity there. I don’t know if you know the history of the word “cockroach” in politics, and that comes from Rwanda. There was previously a discussion where people took it very, very sensitively when the word “cockroach” was brought into politics.
00:09:09:21 – 00:09:31:04
Neil de Beer
And that’s where I stand on that issue. As for Gayton, I can’t say I’m surprised by his reaction, but I’m not denying it—I was absolutely in favor of his response. So, kudos to Gayton! He’s giving them a little bit of a fight, man. I must tell you, I’m not 100% opposed to that.
00:09:31:04 – 00:10:06:04
Chris Steyn
I don’t think Gayton minds in the least being called a bandit. I think he’s quite proud of his history. Anyway, that coalition battle is still raging, and the ANC has submitted a third motion of no confidence in the Democratic Alliance. Mayor Cilliers Brink is fighting for his life. I think his fate will be decided on the 26th of September in the council chamber.
00:10:06:06 – 00:10:13:01
Chris Steyn
Do you have any insight into what’s happening there, Neil?
00:10:13:03 – 00:10:37:00
Neil de Beer
Well, I think what’s happening is… And I’m not going to say we’re Nostradamus, but I think you’ve had Herman Mashaba, funnily enough, coming out of America online. You’ve read Athol Trollip online. I see Cilliers Brink online. Michael Beaumont is still standing there on the sidelines. So, the characters are now being played here.
00:10:37:01 – 00:11:17:09
Neil de Beer
You have, in my opinion, Herman Mashaba, who is now taking this personally. He is clear that this relationship is not going to be saved. You have Michael Beaumont, who is the chair of ActionSA. He is trying to justify, and as you pointed out, the reasons why the ‘marriage’ will not work anymore. You are absolutely right, and I must tell you again, Cilliers is stuck in the middle, and he’s cannon fodder. At this moment, it’s becoming absolutely sad.
00:11:17:09 – 00:11:43:12
Neil de Beer
Now all of these gentlemen are begging for a solution. But I’ll tell you something—the deal is done. It is categorically clear that the ANC has now struck a deal with ActionSA. No matter what ActionSA says, I think they’re just kicking for touch. They are playing for time until the new scenario unfolds with this new attempt at a vote of no confidence against Cilliers.
00:11:43:14 – 00:12:10:18
Neil de Beer
I know all of these players in the market. I understand what is on one side, what is on the other, and what is going to be needed here. If we are really going to try and find a solution—not to save money, but to remain steady and continue. What has happened? The turnaround of that municipality and metro is clear.
00:12:10:20 – 00:12:42:08
Neil de Beer
You know, I said to you off the record—or not, on radio before we got here—I see this as something like what Nelson Mandela and F.W. de Klerk had to do. It wasn’t always a loving relationship. There wasn’t always full respect for each other. But one thing I remember that brought us to where we are today is that neither of them walked away from the table.
00:12:42:10 – 00:13:05:06
Neil de Beer
In politics, you cannot afford to get personal because when you step back, Chris, this is about the people who elected you. We could tell the people what to do and what to think when it suits us. So I think, in this scenario, the DA is not going to walk away. ActionSA, on the other hand, is not going to come out of this without blood on their hands.
00:13:05:08 – 00:13:28:15
Neil de Beer
The ANC faction—and we will get to that now—is playing a very good game. But at the end of the day, the people will continue to suffer if personalities cannot be put aside and the will of the people is not prioritized.
00:13:28:17 – 00:13:43:19
Chris Steyn
Well, the Democratic Alliance has lost another mayor here in the Western Cape, in Theewaterskloof, where the DA’s Lincoln De Bruyn was ousted, and the Freedom Front Plus’s Denise Zimmerman is now the mayor.
00:13:43:21 – 00:14:14:06
Neil de Beer
When we thought calmness would come, when we thought that Peter and John could walk across a braai and actually talk this out… Meanwhile, it seems the volcano was just covered with mud, but was absolutely thundering beneath the Earth’s crust, ready to explode. So there they are. They said they were going to take everyone with them.
00:14:14:06 – 00:14:38:21
Neil de Beer
They are co-governing, and they are taking the DA down one by one. And there it is, Theewaterskloof. So, it seems, Chris, that in the Western Cape, the opposition is not backing down and has decided to continue removing the DA from power. It’s another problem building up for 2026.
00:14:38:23 – 00:15:08:22
Neil de Beer
But the question is: What the hell is going on in the spirit of the GNU? Because everything happening at the top is collapsing at the bottom. This is where I’m saying: What is going on with the future of the GNU? It seems we are heading for a full-blown war in 2026 between the parties.
00:15:09:00 – 00:15:22:02
Chris Steyn
Neil, how could this be linked to certain factions in the ANC positioning themselves as we move forward to the municipal elections and later the national election?
00:15:22:04 – 00:15:54:12
Neil de Beer
Well, news from the underground is that the factionalism currently within the ANC—rumor has it, and Chris, on this show in the past months, we’ve been quite good at verifying rumors. You can clearly see they are working towards the ANC elective conference, which is in about two years from now. People are positioning themselves so that they can strike.
00:15:54:14 – 00:16:26:14
Neil de Beer
We know that Cyril cannot run again. So, it’s over for him. They will have to go to conference. In the tradition of the ANC, as you know, normally the deputy or vice president of the ANC becomes the president of the country. What we’ve seen more and more is that the democratic processes within the ANC have matured.
00:16:26:16 – 00:17:00:21
Neil de Beer
What a situation. It’s clear that there are now key players rearing their heads. You cannot deny that Lesufi is 100% making himself politically relevant. You can clearly see that Mashatile is either dreading the knock of the Hawks or hoping the people stay calm so that he can take the seat. These are the two main players: Panyaza Lesufi and Paul Mashatile.
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00:17:00:23 – 00:17:30:01
Neil de Beer
This is becoming more evident in the media’s discussions. Now, I wonder—just a thought—if the faction that Herman Mashaba is talking to isn’t part of the Lesufi faction, which is building his credibility by taking over every metro: Ekurhuleni, Johannesburg, and across Gauteng, to show, “Look at what I’ve done.”
00:17:30:03 – 00:18:06:18
Neil de Beer
He has regained ANC power in the economic hub of this country, which they claim is helping, and he is using that as leverage for his position at the next conference. Mashatile is almost certainly staying very quiet. John Steenhuisen seems to have lost focus since the exposé on how criminal those vice presidents were. And I’m telling you, the factionalism within the ANC continues to tear the party apart.
00:18:06:18 – 00:18:40:09
Neil de Beer
But it’s true—there’s an MK faction within the ANC. So, over the next two years, this will play out to be a rough ride for citizens, who will sit back and see all these foxes amongst the hares, each one trying to establish their pecking order. It doesn’t bode well. And the other thing is, we cannot dismiss the MK faction’s significant role in the 2026 elections; they might contest and take as many municipalities as they can.
00:18:40:11 – 00:18:59:13
Neil de Beer
The rough ride isn’t over. We are seeing this scenario unfold before us, and every Sunday, Chris, we will continue to expose and keep the people informed with the truth.
00:18:59:15 – 00:19:15:09
Chris Steyn
And Neil, there’s been another shootout between police and suspected extortionists, this time in Mthatha, with three killed. I believe so. Yes, it seems like they’re taking extortionists down, one after another.
00:19:15:11 – 00:19:29:23
Neil de Beer
Yes, I think this will continue. People have spoken to me in the streets and malls, always asking, “What do we have? What about us?” I will always fight for law and order, and it’s now become a cliché—probably something that will be on my headstone one day.
00:19:30:02 – 00:19:53:01
Neil de Beer
We have to face these extortionists. At the end of the day, I’m sorry to say, every Sunday, I will remind everyone that when people decide they are more important than the citizens’ freedom in this country, they shouldn’t cry when citizens fight back for their rights.
00:19:53:03 – 00:20:27:08
Neil de Beer
Now, one person was killed, and while no one wants to glorify assassination, the old saying holds true: “You live by the sword, you die by the sword.” Recently, we saw a major move from Police Minister Bheki Cele, who made two huge revelations in a press conference. First, he acknowledged that crime intelligence within the South African Police Service has collapsed.
00:20:27:10 – 00:20:57:10
Neil de Beer
Now, this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, because admitting a weakness gives us the opportunity to rebuild from that weakness. I find the minister is now very clear about the direction he needs to take. Secondly, he has sent joint forces to what we didn’t know was one of the biggest extortion entities in the Eastern Cape—Mthatha.
00:20:57:12 – 00:21:20:01
Neil de Beer
They are taking back buildings that were taken over by these criminals, block by block. If we can do this in every province and in every area, then I believe we have a ray of light, a ray of justice. But again, I’ll say this in conclusion.
00:21:20:01 – 00:21:45:18
Neil de Beer
Chris, we’re getting the correctional services sector ready. We’ve talked about the fact that we have around 105,000 prison beds, but 154,000 prisoners. There is a solution—build new prisons, but build them in the Karoo, just outside Beaufort West, where it’s cold at night and hot during the day.
00:21:45:20 – 00:22:08:11
Neil de Beer
We cannot allow a lack of bricks and mortar to prevent us from delivering justice. If we need more cement and bricks, let’s partner with companies that can provide them. The police and correctional services seem to be doing their job, but we need the Ministry of Justice to step up as well, to ensure that we arrest, prosecute, and jail these criminals.
00:22:08:14 – 00:22:32:05
Neil de Beer
That’s my analysis, and I think over the next few days, as we approach 100 days of governance, we should measure the progress. Then, we might regain some confidence in the future.
00:22:32:07 – 00:22:38:08
Chris Steyn
Thank you. That was the Sunday show with Neil de Beer, and I’m Chris Steyn. Thank you, Neil.
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