ActionSA Leader Herman Mashaba is set to enter negotiations for an alternative municipal coalition government in the capital Tshwane – after leaving the Multi-Party Coalition with the Democratic Alliance. In this interview with BizNews, Mashaba states: “The only thing that is now left is whether ActionSA will be able to put together a new government with other parties that subscribe to our values of fighting corruption, focus on service delivery to the residents of Tshwane, and ethical leadership. If we can pass this, then we’ll be able to really form a new government with other parties without the DA. But in the event we fail – because we are not going to go into an arrangement with other parties for the sake of going – we’ve taken a decision that come the 26th, ActionSA is happy and comfortable…to really be on the opposition benches.” While Mashaba stresses that he is not going to be “unreasonable”, he is also adamant that he is fully prepared to “walk away” in the event that parties don’t agree. “I think the only thing I’m asking the ANC to do is that, guys, if you’re going to co-govern with us, we’ve got to declare corruption public enemy number one. We’ve got to put in professional people to run our government. We’ve got to save all communities, suburbs, townships, villages.” As for the DA, he states: “…one thing that we want to make clear to South Africans is that the DA coalition in Tshwane can forget about getting the support from our councillors in Tshwane.”
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Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:03.97)
The capital, Tshwane, is set for an alternative municipal coalition government. We speak to Action SA leader, Mr. Herman Mashaba. Welcome, Sir.
Herman Mashaba (00:16.066)
Good morning, Chris, always an absolute pleasure getting this opportunity. And I know I spoke to you, what was it, just before I went on vacation and so subsequent to this when I was in the US. So, Alec had a very interesting engagement with Cillier Brink. I watched it from overseas and I said, that’s wonderful. I know – your media, it’s really one of those independent ones – that I’ll get an opportunity to clarify issues.
Chris Steyn (00:52.332)
Yes, what did you make of what Mr. Brink said to Alec?
Herman Mashaba (00:59.488)
Well, I think it’s interesting, you know, one thing I’ve really learned throughout my life, you know, when you tell a lie, it’s almost impossible to sustain it because you’ve got to keep remembering, you know, whereas when you stand by your principle and you stand for the truth, you can wake me up at three in the morning, I don’t have to remember what I did and so forth and what I said. It might not really be what is palatable to some people, but at the end of the day, I think, remember I shared with you the review process that ActionSA had undertaken.
What triggered, what I think for some reason, Chris, I find South Africans, some South Africans being so selective in their evaluation of issues regardless, very selective, even when you are saying to them, but guys, what triggered ActionSA to take such a drastic decision? I’ve tried to explain more and more and I’m happy to be a broken record.
What triggered our reaction was obviously when we discovered DA engaging ANC national leadership to negotiate with Gauteng to have the provincial GNU or coalition, including giving them the assurance that they will work with them in the three metros, including Tshwane and the removal of ActionSA. And we found this for us as ActionSA really very disturbing taking into consideration our experiences with the DA.
Herman Mashaba (02:59.726)
We thought have now ironed out our differences, which we had since 2021, where we put them into government. Now for them to go behind our back to go and negotiate with the ANC for removal because they could not get past how the Gauteng ANC provincial structures and get us involved.
And we’re lucky, you know, that when the ANC made advances to us, I was already aware about this move and I was already thinking about the steps to protect the ActionSA because one thing that is very clear is that the DA from the inception of ActionSA, they went all out to try and destroy us. And even when after the 2021 elections, we put them into government without their permission, we thought some sense would prevail so that we can keep ANC out. But they went on and on, just frustrating us.
I’m sure I’ve said this before to you, remember 18 months ago when they deliberately put in an ANC EFF Mayor in City of Tshwane and worked with him until up to today.
So yeah, so I think we did our review and our review is clear. We did an exercise with our structures, with residents of Tshwane. We did an analysis of the financial situation of the City of Tshwane. We went beyond that. We looked at how DA has treated us as a party, how they’ve treated our caucus in Tshwane over the years. And we then on Friday, got back on Wednesday from overseas, Friday, the report was ready. We had a full day’s Senate meeting.
Herman Mashaba (05:00.11)
And Senate, when we looked at this, 100% support to say we are out of here with the DA. We cannot really take this abuse any longer.
The only thing that is now left, Chris, is whether ActionSA will be able to put together a new government with other parties that subscribe to our values of fighting corruption, focus on service delivery to the residents of Tshwane and ethical leadership. If we can pass this, then we’ll be able to really form a new government with other parties without the DA.
But in the event we fail, because we are not going to go into an arrangement with other parties for the sake of going, we’ve takem a decision that come the 26th, ActionSA is happy and comfortable we live with it to really be on the opposition benches.
But one thing that we want to make it clear to South Africans that the DA coalition in Tshwane can forget about getting the support from our councillors in Tshwane. So let them go and negotiate with the ANC like they did in the beginning.
Chris Steyn (06:19.208)
Well, in the Democratic Alliance’s reaction, they have called it ActionSA’s final betrayal. What do you say to that, Sir?
Herman Mashaba (06:28.302)
I wonder any normal human being, what we call betrayal, when I’m co-governing with you, put into government by ActionSA’s efforts, I govern with you, you insult me, you disrespect me, you are disloyal to me, and I tolerate you. While busy with you, you go out and go and talk to the ANC to remove ActionSA, and then Action SA, as an independent political party, react by pulling out because we want to defend ourselves. If anybody wants to call this betrayal, then unfortunately, I can’t really help them. If you call this betrayal, it is an issue I raised with you earlier on around some people believe in that because, you know, I mean, yesterday I was talking to some people saying, no, but Herman, yes, we understand, but the DA did not succeed and the City is turning around. Why don’t you consider this? I said, yes, I accept. If you look at the City of Tshwane’s financial performance started improving after 2022 when ActionSA came into government with them.
And this is the same party that spoil their votes to ensure that they don’t have ActionSA Speaker. This is the very same party that gave a 294 million rand contract to Edwin Sodi, refused to cooperate with us to share with us how that contract was awarded.
Herman Mashaba (08:27.694)
This is the very same party in 2022 wanted to push through council for a 26 billion rands unsolicited tender with their preferred service provider and we voted against this.
We tolerated all this and we thought, you know what? They formed the Government of National Unity with the ANC, never even had the courtesy and the decency to inform us of their move, which it’s their right. If that’s how they operate, we respected that.
But to discover afterwards, while you’re busy with them, to discover that they’re negotiating with the ANC for our removal. And if anyone honestly expect ActionSA to sit back and wait for the DA to remove us, honestly, that kind of selective morality…It’s actually what puts South Africa into what situation we’re in right now. If us South Africans are prepared to have selective morality and values, I’m afraid I’m scared for my country because the truth is the truth.
So…Unfortunately, ActionSA has taken a firm decision. Come the 26th of September, ActionSA is not going to defend Cillier Brink in the City of Tshwane. Let him go and negotiate with ANC like they tried to do behind our back.
Chris Steyn (10:04.632)
Sir, should you, ActionSA go into a coalition with the African National Congress and maybe another party, do you think there are long-term risks? Can you trust the African National Congress not to turn on you later down the line and get back into bed with the DA?
Herman Mashaba (10:26.38)
Well, Chris, your question, it’s really such a difficult one…. it’s like asking Herman, will you still be alive tomorrow? Can I give any guarantees? I’m a human being, I’m a subject of God’s creation. Whether I’ll still be alive tomorrow. I’m healthy as I am right now, but between now and 24 hours or 48 hours, I can’t give you guarantee that I’m gonna live until I’m 78. I can’t give you that guarantee, including giving you guarantee that ANC is not going to let us down. I can’t give you the guarantee that I’m not going to have ActionSA members letting me down. That is how real life is because I work with human beings and human beings will let you down. I can’t really give you guarantees that I can trust the ActionSA people. It’s impossible.
So I can give you guarantees of how I will behave. One thing, I can give you a guarantee as Herman Mashaba that I will never steal public monies. I will never lie to anyone. You’ll never come to an arrangement. You can never one day say, but Herman, you lied to us. I might really make a mistake in my decision-making process. I’m a human being. I’m fallible. But I will never mislead you.
Herman Mashaba (12:05.08)
That is why sometimes some people tend to think that I’m a stubborn person because obviously if I’m not comfortable or I don’t agree with an issue, I raise it up upfront. If I agree with you as much as I might not fully agree, I might have differences because I respect the democracy, I agree with the team and I will obviously give them the support and I won’t go back to them to say, but your idea was flawed you know, and I told you so.
Herman Mashaba (12:34.054)
If I agree people advance an argument that eventually and finally agree upon, I will support it. But I will never mislead anyone. When you deal with Herman Mashaba, the agenda that he puts forward to you is the agenda on the table that he puts in front of you.
So can I guarantee the ANC? Unfortunately, I cannot. But one thing I can tell you that right now the current leadership of the DA I do not really trust. Will I trust the future DA leadership? There are lots of good people within the DA. That’s why I left my business. Never thought one day, I’d one day be in politics. When DA approached me in late 2015 to be the mayoral candidate, it came as a complete surprise because I was really vocal about what the ANC was doing to destroy our country. And instead of running away, I thought, you know what, if not you, Herman, who else? And I said, let me try and do it. I had no idea what the Mayor does because when they approached me, I said, guys, honestly, talking to my knowledge of politics is dangerous. I don’t know. What does the Mayor do in the first place? But I realised if I don’t do it, then who else because I was really sick and tired of being an armchair critic. And I’m committed to that process.
That is why I took a decision after the recent elections to really be at the strategic level. And I’m really so pleased that I took that decision. I’ve got a team of members of Parliament who are doing a fantastic job. And here am I, getting an opportunity to really be able to be at a strategic level within the next week or so, I’m going to be leading negotiations with the ANC. It’s going to be tough. It’s not going to be easy because there are certain things that are not negotiable to me, which I’m prepared to walk away in the event that we don’t agree.
Herman Mashaba (14:47.458)
I’m not going to be unreasonable. I think the only thing I’m asking the ANC to do is that, guys, if you’re going to co-govern with us, we’ve got to declare corruption public enemy number one. We’ve got to put in professional people to run our government. We’ve got to save all communities, suburbs, townships, villages. I don’t want a situation where you are saying, we must only provide services to certain communities. We must provide services to everyone. So these are things that are not negotiable as far as I’m concerned. So I’m going to be leading those negotiations myself. Not being in Parliament is giving me that opportunity to really be able to lead those negotiations. Will they be successful? I hope they are. If not, we’ve taken a decision to really be on the opposition benches.
Chris Steyn (15:50.988)
Meanwhile, how is your working relationship with the African National Congress going in Johannesburg?
Herman Mashaba (15:58.082)
Well, it’s only what, four weeks, so I think it’s really very, very early stages of that relationship. And as you are aware, we’re not in the Executive, we are only holding the Legislature. So I think it’s really very early stages to comment on it.
But one thing I can tell you, remember when the Mayor made a statement about around employing illegal foreigners, ActionSA used our power to get him to withdraw that statement that JMPD is not going is not going to, it’s not going to happen under our watch.
And the other issue is that we can’t do anything in this term. I believe very strongly and I’m engaging the ANC to understand there is something that can be done immediately. Yes, you would not really be able to address all the issues. I mean Cape Town itself, the Western Cape is unable to address issues since 2006. So we see people of Gugulethu and Khayelitsha living in squalor.
So here in the City of Johannesburg, absolutely things that can happen immediately. In our City Rejuvenation Project, let’s get rid of all these people who have hijacked our buildings. Those are issues you can immediately embark upon. Create, as I said when I was the Mayor, a construction site, give those buildings to the private sector.
In fact, right now with this new arrangement that in the event I’m successful with the ANC because of now having the relationship with the province, I think an industrial area, Hammanskraal where I was born, where millions of people used to be employed, those factories were 80% of them shut down. They’re being vandalised.
Herman Mashaba (17:58.591)
I would like to really engage the Premier and the Gauteng ANC structures. Let’s talk to national government. Let’s go and reopen those factories. Let’s get the private sector. Garankuwa Industrial Area where I started Black Like Me in 1985. Let us work towards, I’m happy to really work with you. I’ve got the experience of reclaiming buildings without changing our Constitution. These are properties belonging to the State that being vandalised.
And at the same time, we’re sitting with the highest unsustainable unemployment rate in the world. You don’t really need to really be a rocket scientist or a genius. You just really need the political will and putting the right people in. If ANC can learn to put in the right people in jobs, regardless of their political affiliation, race or whatever, put in the right people to do the job and give them the political support, honestly, South Africa can really be saved.
But whether ANC will give me that commitment, that is really up to them. Unfortunately, I’ve tried with DA. DA is not interested, more especially DA is not interested in poor communities. And that’s something that hurts me because I used to tell them when I was the Mayor, when I attended the Federal Council meetings, asking for their protection when some of the councillors I was serving with in the City of Johannesburg used to say to me that I’m giving too much focus on people who don’t pay taxes, who don’t vote for the DA. And I’ll go to the DA national leadership to say, please, I need protection because this is an insult to me.
Herman Mashaba (19:51.642)
I was born in abject poverty. You’re aware I lost my father at the age of two. My mother was here in Johannesburg raising white kids, cleaning white homes. So I know how to go to school without shoes. I know how to go to school the entire day without having anything to eat.
Herman Mashaba (20:13.134)
Do these people in Alexandria….in other places, who are today unemployed as a result of ANC failures? Let’s admit it. But the failure did not start 30 years ago. In 1948, when the National Party came into power, that made some of us not to have our fathers and our mothers.
Let us all commit to this and do it in a manner that we can build the nation that Mandela and Desmond Tutu really wished it could happen. And the only way it can happen, we must believe in social justice. But unfortunately, the current DA leadership doesn’t believe in that.
So honestly, I’m sitting in a very precarious environment as a country. I’ve got a party that’s involved in corruption right now. I’m sitting with a party with a history of evil. and I’ve worked with the two parties. It looks like, I don’t know, I hope the ANC’s elections have actually humbled them to realise that if they don’t do anything about it, they’re going to die. And at the same time, I think I’ve really tried with the DA to get them to understand that as long as they don’t regard social justice as a basis of the success of our country.
So I don’t know, we’re in a really very difficult situation, but we’ll try because fortunately enough in both parties ANC and DA, there are lots of good people in there. It’s only the leadership that have actually failed the people of this country.
Chris Steyn (22:04.396)
Sir, in your negotiations with ANC going forward, are you putting demands for positions in the new coalition government on the table?
Herman Mashaba (22:12.884)
No, we’ve not started the negotiations as yet. I think, you know, Chris, when you go into this kind of negotiations, don’t go there with arrogance. I think I come from an environment throughout my life of being involved in negotiations. And as a person who really believes, if you want to really get the best outcomes in negotiations, make sure that the outcome is a win-win for both parties, not just me. So I’m not really going there to win, be arrogant to really get what I want. I want to get involved in a negotiations, successful negotiations as far as I’m concerned. It’s a win-win for both parties.
So right now, think, leave it to us. I will start negotiations as soon as ANC contacts me. I’ve made it public because before that, before getting the Senate approval I said I cannot negotiate the details, we’ll only negotiate the details. I believe they’ve been involved in their own internal processes. As soon as they contact me, please give us the space. If we are successful with the negotiations I will let South Africa know that we are successful. If I failed I’ll tell you we failed and why we failed, but that means if I fail to really put together government with them, then ActionSA will go into the opposition benches.
Chris Steyn (23:48.92)
Thank you. That was ActionSA leader Mr. Herman Mashaba speaking to BizNews about plans for an alternative municipal coalition government in the capital, Tshwane. Thank you, Sir. And I’m Chris Steyn.
Herman Mashaba (24:01.719)
Thank you so much.
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