In this latest Sunday Show with Neil De Beer, the President of the United Independent Movement (UIM) identifies former President Jacob Zuma as the politician who holds the most aces in the “dirty tricks department” of hidden scandals involving other politicians. “…he always uses the security conclave and the intelligence scenario. And that’s why he’s always one ahead…I don’t think there’s people that can counter MK at this moment on that deep dark level.” Analysing the appointment of Floyd Shivambu as the MKP’s Secretary General, De Beer says: “He’s going to solidify them. But at the same time, make no mistake, he’s also going to kill EFF.” De Beer dissects the possible motive behind Deputy President Paul Mashatile’s stance that the Government of National Unity (GNU) would survive a Democratic Alliance (DA) exit. He also lists the politicians in the African National Congress (ANC) Top 7 whom he believes are indictable and impeachable. And he describes how the flaunting of laws have created two current national crises.
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Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Chris Steyn (00:01.58)
It’s Sunday, the 24th of November, and it is the Sunday Show with Neil De Beer, the President of the United Independent Movement. Welcome back, Neil.
Neil De Beer (00:12.83)
Very good morning. Maybe one of the last mornings for quite a while where I can open up the show by saying, Oppie Bokke, our last game for the season, and Springboks victorious over Wales. An unbelievable run for the South African national rugby team. And no matter what we say, because they keep on lifting our spirit, they keep on looking at giving us hope, that team…so inspirational this year. Not that other teams have not, but to Rassie and to Siya, thank you for a great year, but also adding to ensuring that we as South Africans know that we are better, that we are greater, and that we are a power to be reckoned with if we can get things right. So well done to them.
Chris Steyn (01:04.526)
Talking about another power to be reckoned to ais former President Jacob Zuma. Now it seems that there are moves afoot, Neil, to purge his loyalists from the State Security Agency. Surely that is a little too late.
Neil De Beer (01:19.81)
Now Chris, you know I come from that industry. Shocking revelation this week that we are looking at not just the purging rumour has it of the people within the State Security entity, but also the current offer now that a lot of them are offered retirement packages now over a certain age to leave State Security.
Now Chris, if I can tell you as a person that comes out of there, one of the most important defense mechanisms that a country has is intelligence. Because we always classify intelligence in two main areas. One is called foreign and the other one is domestic. It’s the classic CIA America does foreign intelligence work, FBI internal. Our country had that system. After ’94, we broke up National Intelligence, where we then said we would have the State Security Agency and NI. Our National Intelligence system would then be domestic and the secret State Security Agency, the SSA, would be foreign. We have seen categorically the collapse of that system and the worst of it.
What people did not recognise, Chris, which was a major flag to me when it happened, was that it was at first an independent ministry. And at one stage, Cyril Ramphosa then brought the State Security Agency Ministry under the Presidency. That’s a red flag. So we’ve not had a Minister of
State Security. We’ve had a Deputy Minister in the Presidency running State Security.
That same conclave have now started to say, but we need a reassessment and a re-understanding. Hey, it’s too late. How much have we as a country been infiltrated, bashed, have been attacked by the lapse of that very important entity? Because without intelligence, we don’t have pre-warning. Without pre-warning, we have no planning.
Neil De Beer (03:45.036)
Without planning, we have no defense. And this is something that we need to watch. Chris, an intelligence officer can be trained the tricks of the trade. But one of the biggest assets of an intelligence officer, they call them spooks and spies and 007, but one thing that makes a great intelligence officer is time spent on the ground. And that’s what we are worried about now because they are going to be removed.
So the purging of saying this is an opportunity to get rid of all the people that Zuma put into State Security to protect him, that’s one thing. But the release of so many people the brain drain, I think is going to hurt our intelligence.
Chris Steyn (04:37.86)
But just going back to Zuma’s time in intelligence, Neil, he must be sitting on every dirty little secret of every politician of note in this country and is choosing perhaps not to use it in any overt manner. Who do you think is the politician who holds the most aces when it comes to the dirty secrets department?
Neil De Beer (05:02.496)
I, definitely Jacob. I mean, he was in the ANC, one of the people spearheading intelligence. He was trained by the foreign apparatus. And no doubt, you know, people say that the man might not have a school degree, but he is streetwise. And that is why he always uses the security conclave and the intelligence scenario. And that’s why he’s always one ahead.
So if you look at world leaders that come from the intelligence services. One of the most dramatic is Vladimir Putin, who was ex-head of the KGB. People that come out of intelligence are trained to always have connections everywhere.
But there’s another person, I must tell you, in my opinion, that carried state secrets as well. That was Bheki Cele. There’s no doubt that he carried dockets on everybody. And that is what made him a dangerous man. And that’s why, in my opinion,
Neil De Beer (05:58.35)
allegedly, we could not bloody get rid of him because it was the scenario of if you do that, then I will do that.
Having people with such power, you know, I call it the J. Edgar Hoover syndrome. One of the most powerful people in America was J. Edgar Hoover, the Head of the FBI. He could manipulate and destroy presidents. And we have them here. We have them in us. And it is it is it’s a form of politics. It’s a form of this dirty thing called politics. But it is so obvious now that this game is being played. And if you want to be on the same level, you will have to counter it. And I’m sorry, I don’t think there’s people that can counter MK at this moment on that deep dark level.
Chris Steyn (06:44.453)
And another reason why former President Jacob Zuma is refusing to accept the National Disciplinary Committee of Appeals decision to uphold the National Disciplinary Commission’s decision to expel him from the ANC. He bluntly states, I have MK, but I am not leaving the ANC.
Neil De Beer (07:05.774)
Chris, he’s like this guy that when you braai with a white t-shirt and you’re busy flinging the chops off that flame and suddenly you look at your t-shirt, your pride. white t-shirt and there are oil spots and fat all over it. You’re not going to get it out. Jacob Zuma is like one of those fat spots on a t-shirt. Hy will net nie waai nie.
You know, I had a great icon in my days, Sonja Heroldt. Do you remember her?
Neil De Beer (07:36.622)
And she had a song Bring vir die Harlekyn nog Wyn. In other words, in English, bring this clown more wine. Because at this current moment, we have so many clowns in this circus, but this one, he is clinging, he’s a cling-on. He doesn’t want to go. And now Chris, gets up and he says, no, no, no.
Neil De Beer (08:06.506)
You as the ANC, you don’t have the level and the right and the history to expel me because on Friday his appeal against his expulsion was turned down. So he just gets up and he says, no, no, no, no, no, no, I’m now going to take this on double appeal. I mean hoeveel appeale will jy nou insit? You know, appeal, appeal, appeal. I mean, this guy is going to end up with absolutely nothing. He’ll probably go to the grave with his last hands on an appeal. So I’m saying…
Neil De Beer (08:36.194)
There is no stopping of him. He’s just continually going on. And I think it is an orchestrated scenario of creating attention, creating hype and giving MK every week another two pages and front pages on every media. Are they playing the game? Yes, they are. Are they doing it well? Yes, they are. Does it bode well for the South African citizen? No, it does not, because these are the people…
Neil De Beer (09:05.804)
that one day are wanting to take over this Government and again we are just going to move from clown to clown and tent to tent in my opinion. Hy will net nie ophou nie.
Chris Steyn (09:17.08)
Well, another power move in MKP, is the appointment of Economic Freedom Fighters, defector Floyd Shivambu as the new Secretary General. What do you think, Neil?
Neil De Beer (09:33.714)
I’m not surprised. I’m not surprised about the quick rise of Floyd Shivambu within MK. I’ve said this before. They had to move him to settle him, made him so-called National Coordinator, and then bumped him up to Secretary General.
Now, there’s a very specific reason. The loss, I think you can note, of the oomph of the EFF is slowly but surely every day cracking on a wall that was built on absolutely nothing. The foundation of the EFF was propaganda. The foundation of the EFF was national orchestration. The foundation of the EFF was Floyd Shivambu. It was not Julius Malema. Julius was the man that you could put a sock, put him onto a stage and do this… It was Floyd that gave that structure and continually building it. Now that he’s gone, he is going to do exactly what he did at the EFF. And you can see it already, him doing the exact DNA in MK. Now, I’m telling you, because this is not a absolutely uncalculated move by MK. Floyd Shivambu brings one thing which they did not have, and that was political not credibility in the positive sense, but political street cred to a party that suddenly finds itself in a conundrum of a wild seat in Parliament. He has that experience. He has that attitude that he served in Parliament for an extensive time. And therefore it’s another 10 peg into MK of absolutely setting down their prerogative of going into 2026.
He is now the Secretary General. It gives him a huge power. It gives him a massive entity to run. And I’m telling you now, don’t be surprised that in five years from now, he might go higher. And that is the intent of them. And he’s going to build those structures on the street. He’s going to give them their propaganda. He’s going to solidify them. But at the same time, make no mistake, he’s also going to kill EFF.
Chris Steyn (11:53.272)
Well, meanwhile, over at the Presidency, the Deputy seems confident that the Government of National Unity would survive a Democratic Alliance exit. Now, I think MKP would be watching a possibility like that salivating, would they not, Neil?
Neil De Beer (12:12.942)
Yeah, he’s an idiot. You know the problem with an idiot, Chris, is that an idiot doesn’t know he’s an idiot. So you’ve got to remind him you’re an idiot. You know, he’s an idiot. Because when you look at him, it is not as if we cannot see his gameplay. And I’m sorry to tell you that. He’s an idiot. Because it is only an idiot that will stand on a pole and tell everybody that I am OK, I am clean, I’m a future leader when you yourself know you’re under investigation. He’s currently under investigation for a perjury charge in government. You know the dockets that were put onto the table about Paul Mashatile by the very same DA that he says they can do without. And he is standing there not as just charge number one; he is one of the top five that are currently absolutely not clean.
So Paul Mashatile sits there and now has to become relevant. And it is not because he’s being relevant today, he’s got to now build up his political credibility for the 2027 ANC fight for Presidency, Chris, because Cyril is gone. Now I can tell you, Paul Mashatile is is definitely not in the Cyril camp. He’s not there. So now he has to sit and he has to say, well, Cyril is gone. It’s his second term. And according to the tradition, not that the ANC of today has any tradition or value left, normally the Vice President becomes the President. Now we’ve had a failure of that when we had Didi Mabuza gone, because that was just a prop and a money transfer of making sure that votes could pop up Cyril, allegedly. And now you’ve got this guy that is currently sitting, he has no political credibility. He sits there and now he has to make a statement. Now, what is he going to say? He can’t attack crime. He can’t accuse anybody around him in the leadership of being criminals because he’s being investigated himself. So the crime looting kind of thing will not suit his narrative. And where the hell do you now think he comes? And he comes on a ticket of saying we don’t need the DA. We can continue with this Government of National Unity without the DA. That is his shot now.
Neil De Beer (14:40.95)
And I’m telling you, it is his shot to equal and become relevant to now match Mr. Lesufi, who has, as you know, also started to play his shots by ousting municipalities, making deals with the Mashabas of the world. I see that he’s also now made a statement by ActionSA saying, we would like to now have more power in Joburg, because we’re doing so well in Tshwane.
Neil De Beer (15:08.366)
We really need to now extend our power in Joburg and Ekurhuleni. So you can see there is this battle now between the Lesufi camp and now Mr. Mashatile coming in and saying, my ticket is to get out the DA and to say to them that we can run this without them.
Chris, this is a warning shot. A interesting shot to say when we come to 2027 and I’ve said this with you before. The tactic is that no matter who takes over from Cyril Ramaphosa, there’s only two camps. It’s either going to be Cyril and apparently his favourite Mr. Lamola to take over because he believes that he is on the Cyril GNU DA side or it will be Paul Mashatile or Lesufi and if it goes that way, you might find his words become real that they leave the GNU.
I’ll make a statement. No matter what we say, the hope of this country’s continual trajectory of becoming economically better, service delivery better, making sure that we’ve got credibility in a government that lost it, is no doubt, and I’ll say it, the DA in government were the other members of the GNU at this government. We don’t have anything else. So therefore we must pray it stays in its stead.
But Paul Mashatile coming out and saying that, warning sign. Not that we didn’t know.
Chris Steyn (16:42.678)
Neil, who in the top seven of the African National Congress would you declare absolutely clean?
Neil De Beer (16:50.511)
Yeah.
Chris Steyn (16:51.029)
Don’t tell me I’ve asked you a trick question now.
Neil De Beer (16:53.838)
No. You know Chris, I sat down this week as we always do, you and I, planning this programme, digging, getting my team. And I looked at the top seven currently, it used to be the top six. It’s now the top seven in the ANC. And just to put a matter of fact on statement, it is very easy.
The President of this country, who’s top six, is standing still under a cloud. He will always remain under the Phala Phala cloud. He will always remain a person that cannot deny and it seems people have a loss of memory. Daai ding, that man was the Deputy President to Jacob Zuma. That man. And it’s as if we totally forget it. It is, it’s like we live in a twilight world. A Deputy President knows exactly what the President knows because he’s the Vice President. I can therefore not be told that he didn’t know. He did not know. So there he stands. He will carry that scourge of Marikana. He will carry the scourge of Phala Phala. He will carry the scourge of being a Deputy President to that man called Jacob Zuma. He will carry the scourge of COVID. He will carry those indictments until he is proven in a court of law not guilty. So that’s him.
Paul Mashatile, who is the Vice President of the ANC and the Deputy President of this country, stands, I’ve just said, indicted himself.
Then you get Gwede. Gwede Mantashe, Chairman of the ANC, who is clearly in the Zondo Commission stated that he must face charges because he received a benefit from BOSASA. It says so. So, there’s Gwede.
Then Fikile Mbalula. Fikile Mbalula is mentioned as the current Secretary General of the ANC in the Zondo Commission that he purged himself in an on-record affidavit to the then Public Protector…
Neil De Beer (19:19.242)
Chris, can you imagine that the fish does rot from the head? And this is the leadership of the country. So they’re not clean. And I’m sorry, until they are not in a court of law, being found not guilty, no matter what we think of justice, this country sits with a leadership that is indictable, that is impeachable.
And you will remember, when they took it to Parliament to say to the President, maak jourself skoon because the country needs a clean leader, it needs a leader of principle because we’ve got so much trouble. It is him. Jy kan sien. Ek raak sommer moerig. it is him that sat at the Zondo Commission and said that the ANC is accused Number One under his Presidency.
Dit is a godskryende skande. My grandmother would say Het jy nie skaamte nie? In other countries, they would be removed. In this country, we re-elect them, even when they lose an election. Can you imagine? So Chris answered, they’re not clean. And we cannot make them clean until they’ve not been indicted, until they have not gone to a court of law. Now you know what are the chances.
Chris Steyn (20:47.842)
Neil, before I say goodbye to you, I quickly want to go to one of a couple of national crises at the moment. Now that the food poisoning deaths of many children has forced the registration of Spaza shops, we have locals coming forward to register those shops on behalf of foreigners for reward. Maybe you should tell them that they will be the ones SARS will be coming after.
Neil De Beer (21:15.522)
They don’t care. You know, Chris, one of my lead team guys, Reese Lucas, that does all my investigations into the sense of studying what law, where we are. I asked him to research on the pressing issues that we’ve got now. The Zama Zama issue, the poison food issue, and the immigration issue. And he wrote me a document of all the laws. Trust me, in this country, there are laws.
Funny the immigration law currently says that if a foreign national wants to invest and open a business in this country, this is de facto. He needs to invest a minimum amount of five million rand. Did you know that? Where’s this Spaza shop going to put five million? That’s the law. It’s black and white and I think we’ll post these at a link on our thing. There’s an immigration law Secondly, there is a law on mining and resources in this country. Zama Zama. They may not mine illegally.
Chris, look at all these laws. They were just flaunted and they were not engaged to implement. The reason we’ve got kids dying now of poison Spaza shops is because the immigration law did not stop and enforce that regulation. That’s just part of it. I’m not saying all of them are foreigners. But you know how big foreigners and the issues are. It’s because the law was not enforced. We are sitting with miners underground that are illegal. Reason? Because no one enforced the law under the Mining and the DME Act.
It is simple that this country is lawless. It’s lawless. You can buy law. You can buy justice in this country, Chris. I am vehemently for a government with zero tolerance. You know that. It’s time that we come back and vote in an entity that does not flaunt the law. And we should not as citizens for one minute stop fighting for a credible leadership in this country that are clean, Chris, that have the mind of the people and will enforce law.
Jobs and justice in conclusion, Chris, will remain the two biggest problems of this country. Jobs.
Neil De Beer (23:42.59)
Justice. If we can get that balance right, if we can get people into jobs, stimulate the economy and make sure that justice prevails, we will rise as a country that is again loved, revered and where maybe people will then again accept our passport as golden as we had a couple of years ago.
Chris Steyn (24:08.844)
Well, wouldn’t it be amazing to travel to London without a visa? Can you remember those days? Just jumping on a plane. Thank you. was Neil de Beer, the President of the United Independent Movement on this Sunday Show with BizNews. And I am Chris Steyn. Thank you, Neil.
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