Neil de Beer: “Incompetent” Angie, “competent” John & his “Ché Guevera” advocate…
The "incompetence" of Defence Minister Angie Motshekga and the "competence" of impeached Judge John Hlope are trending topics. In this interview, Neil De Beer, the President of the United Independent Movement, warns: "If you don't listen to what your people say, you are going to fall on your own sword. So when the head of the Navy, when the Army and the Air Force are screaming and telling you, we are the people in the command structure, but you don't listen, or you don't have the competency to understand what they are saying to you, then what do you get?" De Beer also analyses the legal battle led by Advocate Dali Mpofu for MKP MP and impeached Judge John Hlope to take up his position on the Judicial Services Commission. "Mr. Pomp and Ceremony, Dali Mpofu, getting up again. Seems like he is now the Legal Mind for the Revolutionary. Their own little advocate, Ché Guevera…And I think this case is a showcase of where we as a country are going to have an outcome if we choose people that have integrity or not."
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Highlights from the interview
Neil De Beer offers a comprehensive commentary on the challenges faced by South Africa's defence force, touching on both the Navy and broader defence structures. He highlights a key issue raised by Vice Admiral Lobesi, who publicly acknowledged the Navy's struggles due to budget shortages, a rare and concerning admission from within the military leadership. De Beer reflects on South Africa's once-formidable defence capabilities, contrasting them with the current state of decay in the country's defence industry, including companies like Armscor and Denel.
He critiques the defence minister's incompetence and failure to secure permits for a key international arms show, stressing the broader implications of this failure on South Africa's defence readiness. De Beer emphasizes that the defence force's structural and budgetary issues have eroded morale within the ranks, urging significant reforms to restore confidence.
He also comments on the impeachment of Judge John Hlophe, expressing strong disapproval of the judicial system's handling of his case. De Beer points out that while Hlophe may be competent, his integrity is fundamentally compromised due to unethical conduct, making him unfit for a role in the Judicial Service Commission.
Edited transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
00:00:13:22 – 00:00:25:20
Chris Steyn
The South African Defense Force and the judiciary are trending topics. We speak to Neil De Beer, the president of the United Independent Movement. Welcome, Neil.
00:00:25:22 – 00:01:11:00
Neil De Beer
Well, Chris, I had the honor of being the guest of the chief of the Navy, Vice Admiral Lobesi, in Simonstown. They have revived the naval festival, which, I must tell you, was always an institution so supported by the community of the Western Cape and the people of Simonstown. So, we had the grand opening, and I must tell you, you know, the Navy, no matter what you say, when it comes to pomp and ceremony, uniforms, ships, and the lights and the planes, they always impress, I must say.
00:01:11:02 – 00:01:40:03
Neil De Beer
And then, shockingly, the next day, I sat back and saw the speech of Vice Admiral Lobesi. When people like us—commentators, people in the media, people in politics—say, "Does this happen?" you've got to understand people will question you. They will always say, "But Neil, you're biased," or "You don't know what you're talking about." Is it really like that?
00:01:40:05 – 00:02:31:03
Neil De Beer
And you will know that I have frequently, mildly, said that we have got epilepsy as a defense force. We have an airforce that's incapacitated. We don't have enough aircraft. We don't have enough support for our troops deployed. Our budgets within the defense force are not keeping up with maintenance, and it's falling apart. But when the chief of the Navy gets up on a platform and says publicly that he is absolutely being strung up because of the shortage of budgetary support for the Navy, that is a shocking statement coming from within.
00:02:31:05 – 00:03:07:10
Neil De Beer
But he immediately then says, as he must, that the same Navy, no matter the cuts and shortages of funding, will continue to do their utmost best to protect the life and limb of the Republic of South Africa. But this is a massive statement, yes, of a current leader within the armed services. You publicly say that the more than just over 1 billion allocated is not sufficient to make this Navy operate at 100%.
00:03:07:12 – 00:03:31:16
Neil De Beer
He's just talking about the Navy. I cannot imagine the Air Force, and I don't even want to talk about the Army division. This is shocking. This does not bode well for us as citizens in this country who absolutely feel confident, like you said, that we are 100% protected under the defense force's capabilities.
00:03:31:18 – 00:03:44:04
Chris Steyn
Well, apparently, the defense minister has not yet produced a report on the state of the SANDF, and that was due sometime in September already, was it not, Neil?
00:03:44:06 – 00:03:48:23
Neil De Beer
Yes. But remember, she only needs 30% of the time to get it right.
00:03:49:01 – 00:03:58:04
Chris Steyn
So, then what about the deputy minister? I mean, he does have experience. General Bantu Holomisa—shouldn't he be doing something to support her?
Read more: De Beer: SA's "Wrecking ball" politics
00:03:58:06 – 00:04:20:09
Neil De Beer
Absolutely, Chris. But it is a shocking rollover of just one issue after another. We spoke the other day about the biggest air defense and military show where the world comes together. Because, I must tell you, I know it—the armaments space in the world is one of the biggest industries ever. War, unfortunately, creates industry.
00:04:20:11 – 00:04:50:10
Neil De Beer
So, when you look at the total defense structure, which I was involved in, when you talk about Armscor, Denel, aerospace—these are things we were very competent in. One of South Africa's biggest attributes was the methodology of creating certain things like the Ratel, the Rooivalk, the Casspir, the Eland, the G5 Cannon, and the G6 Cannon.
00:04:50:11 – 00:05:19:05
Neil De Beer
We had a huge capability for creation, and it's not an industry that people are attracted to, but it's a reality of life. That capability is now non-existent. So, when you take Armscor, Denel, or those structures, we have absolutely dismantled one of the greatest innovation industries in the world, which was in South Africa.
00:05:19:07 – 00:05:53:01
Neil De Beer
So now, not only do we lack the structure to maintain a defense force, but everything attached to it is crumbling. I am still so shocked that you can take the current minister—who I'm telling you is not competent—because she fails to get the permits in order for one of the biggest entities in the world, in armament, the United States, to come to the Pretoria show.
00:05:53:07 – 00:06:20:09
Neil De Beer:
This is incompetence. If you don't listen to what your people say, you're going to fall on your own sword. So, when the head of the Navy, the Army, and the Air Force are screaming and telling you, "We are the people in the command structure," but you don't listen or you don't have the competency to understand what they are saying, then what do you get?
00:06:20:09 – 00:06:52:21
Neil De Beer:
Well, you get this kind of rubbish that we currently have. We had, no matter what you say, one of the most formidable striking forces in the world, now reduced to where we are today. And I hope there will be change. Otherwise, it won't bode well. And one more thing: I am in contact with the people on the ground, and I'll tell you, the morale of the average person, at least within the forces, is absolutely not good.
00:06:52:23 – 00:06:54:13
Neil De Beer:
And that must change.
00:06:54:15 – 00:07:09:06
Chris Steyn:
Well, Neil, lastly, I just want to go into MKP's failed court bid to stop the Judicial Service Commission hearings from going ahead without its MP, former Judge John Hlophe.
00:07:09:07 – 00:07:36:08
Neil De Beer:
Yo, Mr. Pomp and Ceremony, Dali Mpofu, getting up again. It seems like he is now the legal mind for the revolution, their own little advocate Che Guevara getting up there. And I was obviously, knowing we would talk about this, intensely watching the case that was coming up this week. And I'm telling you, there is an absolute—I'm going to say it—uneducated moment.
00:07:36:10 – 00:08:02:21
Neil De Beer:
But, you know, I come from the ground, so I'm going to use it. What a "dof" moment. Dof. When last did you hear that? D-O-F. In my days, we used to say to each other, "Jirre, maar jy is dof." What a dof moment. Here we've got a presentation of—hear me—an impeached judge. Not a judge who was late for work or didn't give us his sick certificate.
00:08:02:21 – 00:08:34:16
Neil De Beer:
This is a judge—no, no, no—a judge president that was impeached. And he was impeached, no matter what you say, because he was absolutely unethical. He was found to be a person who committed something that was absolutely against every principle of integrity. I'm not going to labor this because this is my opinion, and I'm right. On this one, I'm right. He got impeached. He's no longer welcome as a judge.
00:08:34:16 – 00:09:07:18
Neil De Beer:
Therefore, he changes his focus from retired judge to Dr. John Hlophe. You will notice they now emphasize his doctorate. Now, he goes to court. This is madness, Chris. This is a judge that got impeached because he tried to influence other judges to find in favor of Jacob Zuma.
00:09:07:20 – 00:09:41:08
Neil De Beer:
It wasn't a coffee discussion, and dit was nie koekies en beskuit nie. He was found guilty of trying to change a verdict. That's the first thing. Number two, they go to court, and they start fighting about matters. For example, if he doesn't sit in the JSC—remember, this is what it's about. The court found that he cannot sit in the appointed seat he got in the JSC, which is the platform where they select judges.
00:09:41:10 – 00:10:05:19
Neil De Beer:
So, they won that court case. I think it was the DA that brought the case. And the court found, yes, Judge Hlophe at this moment is suspended from attending the new JSC sittings. So, the MK Party took them to court to fight that judgment. And this is their case. It's not about whether he sits or not; it's about whether there's a quorum they agreed upon.
00:10:05:21 – 00:10:34:10
Neil De Beer:
And then they said this is a constitutional rights matter. Because the Constitution says if you are elected as a member of Parliament, Chris, you are allowed to be nominated and elected to any portfolio committee or any parliamentary committee. That's what they are arguing. So, it's not about the process; it's about the constitutional right.
00:10:34:10 – 00:11:11:22
Neil De Beer
But here's the thing. It ended up being a debate about only two words. Here's the crux: competency or integrity. Now, Chris, when you say that you are competent in a certain job, but you have no integrity, this is a massive matter. So MK and the rest of the entities are fighting. He's competent. He wrote so many doctorals. He was a judge for 27 years.
00:11:12:02 – 00:11:38:18
Neil De Beer
They are fighting about his competency, that he is competent to adjudicate, to say who can be a judge or not. Competency is one thing, but integrity, to me, is the primary factor in what you do, especially when it's about a judge. So there's the same argument, Chris: you're a medical doctor,
00:11:38:23 – 00:12:07:07
Neil De Beer
you're a surgeon, you've been a surgeon for 27 years, but in your own practice, you kill people because of a certain reason. And after 29 people die in your surgery, they come to you and say, "You were expelled from being a practitioner of medicine." Then they put you on the medical adjudication board where you can now judge the competency of surgeons.
00:12:07:11 – 00:12:37:07
Neil De Beer
Isn't that the same thing? So no one's arguing that you're a bad doctor. No one's arguing that you weren't a good or capable judge. Everybody is now questioning your integrity. And that, to me, is the case made against Hlophe being able to sit in the JSC. And I support that because, I'm telling you, he's lost all integrity.
00:12:37:09 – 00:12:58:00
Chris Steyn
Thank you. And, you know, maybe next time we can talk about all the cases that Dali has lost. I can't make up my mind whether he takes on cases knowing he's going to lose them or how many more cases does he have to lose before people stop using him? What do you think?
00:12:58:01 – 00:13:13:04
Neil De Beer
Well, it's one of those jobs where, no matter the outcome, you still get paid. So I really think I'm going to do, maybe this week, a little bit of a study of all the cases that he has done and what his current win-to-lose ratio is. I think that will be very interesting.
00:13:13:06 – 00:13:15:00
Chris Steyn
Will you have a look?
00:13:15:06 – 00:13:42:08
Neil De Beer
Absolutely. But what we find at this current moment is, Chris, just in closing, I think this country is tired of having people in leadership who have no integrity. And I think this case is a showcase of where we, as a country, are going to end up if we keep choosing people who lack integrity.
00:13:42:23 – 00:14:03:06
Chris Steyn
Thank you. That was Neil De Beer, the president of the United Independent Movement, speaking to BizNews about the South African National Defense Force and the judiciary. Thank you, Neil. I'm Chris Steyn.
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